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As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

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Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#711

Post by fighterpilot »

betwixthewires wrote: post #685
fighterpilot wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does current scientific knowledge preclude it? Is a simulation of the entire human body impossible in principle, or alternatively is it known that such a simulation won't be conscious?

Because from our current understanding, the mind is an emergent property of the brain, not some ethereal thing contained by the brain. It might be possible to create artificial consciousness, to find consciousness that occurs in different ways, but to move a human mind out of a brain, as far as we can tell, is impossible.

There's a lot of unresolved debate in the philosophy of mind about how the mind might come about from the brain.

Not all hypotheses assert substrate-dependant epiphenomenalism, which is what you seem to be suggesting.

So our current understanding is merely that we have little clue whether it's possible. I lean towards the idea that it's possible and view the burden of proof as being on your shoulders to show why wetware as a substrate is necessary.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#712

Post by RichardCA »

ttt0 wrote: post #648
_teyd wrote: post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This idea that science and technology is just another random religion is so frustrating, but I encounter it online way more often than I would expect. I don’t need to personally review and understand the details of why electricity and the internet work, because I am literally typing this message on an electronic device and sending it via the internet. No faith needed, and anyway.. I can go build a simple computer and…

> This idea that science and technology is just another random religion is so frustrating That's not my idea, take it to people who are treating science as such. You know, "believe the science" crowd, that will just take at face value whatever media happens to say at the time. Electricity and the internet are out of scope for religion. Religion is closer to humanist subjects, sociology, psychology, ethics etc.

When Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod, he had to be persuasive enough to get people to believe that electricity wasn't just a parlor trick you do with a glass rod and a silk scarf. It's also how clouds create lightning, and the fundamental forces are the same.

You have to remember in the 18th century, lightning killed a lot of people. The fact that lightning rods did, in fact, do what Franklin said they would do was persuasive evidence.

I'm not an expert on the history of Ben Franklin, so I don't know if he ever had to explain that lightning doesn't exist to provide divine retribution. But he did have to get each local church to allow a lightning rod on the steeple with a proper connection to grounding, so I'm sure there were some interesting conversations.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#713

Post by andrewmcwatters »

andrewjl wrote: post #550
andrewmcwatters wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The United States has the world's largest Christian population, and its founding was directly influenced by religion; the Church of England and the Puritans.[1][2][3][4] To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore not only history, but the present. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Colony [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_of_New_England#Establ... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Province_of_Mas…

This isn't really the whole story. Many of the founders were Deist and/or practically irreligious. The other important distinction is that the Church of England is essentially a state church. In many ways the U.S. Constitution, on which Nonconformists had far more influence, is its antithesis . [1] Puritanism/Nonconformism views religion as a personal or at most a local matter. One of the references you shared has an…

That's so far from the truth, that it's a fraudulent historical claim. They were almost all religious, and the early population of both the proto-United States, and the then-declared independent states were predominantly Protestant.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#714

Post by teddyh »

mistermann wrote: post #709
teddyh wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Taoism”, the religion , has, as I am given to understand, many of the normal trappings of religion, including formal dresses for priests, and, IIRC, quite a lot of alchemy. This is probably not the “Taoism” which you read about in western pop-culture paperbacks or hippie-age TV.

Perhaps they have priests with costumes, and I am not aware of any alchemy, but are these "shortcomings" in any sort of fundamental, materially important way?

I mean, alchemy is not a really an advantage for a religion to include these days. Most religions have dropped their medical claims long ago.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#715

Post by mistermann »

teddyh wrote: post #714
mistermann wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they have priests with costumes, and I am not aware of any alchemy, but are these "shortcomings" in any sort of fundamental, materially important way?

I mean, alchemy is not a really an advantage for a religion to include these days. Most religions have dropped their medical claims long ago.

Sure, but I am more interested in this idea of whether alchemy is a fundamental and substantial part of Taoism, and then also the question of whatever negatives may come with that (if it is actually true), is Taoism in the aggregate net beneficial to humanity, or not. I'm curious if you have any thoughts on the matter.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#716

Post by tonymet »

tolbish wrote: post #644
tonymet wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm concerned of both aspects. For one, thinking that secular belief is essential or natural – as if it's defined only by the material world and observations on it. Secular belief also assumes its universal (why wouldn't it be since we all live on the same earth). This leads to totalitarianism (with a small t)

That's like saying math leads to totalitarianism (with a small t because that sounds more scary) because some people assume its universal and will therefore kill in its name.

But math isn't comprehensive in belief . It's universally true but only applied narrowly

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#717

Post by tonymet »

chii wrote: post #608
amcoastal wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While your points are good your last paragraph projects a lot of weaknesses onto your readers. Do you believe you're the first person to come up with these points and realize them? Or perhaps that someone could have taken an opposite approach of yours -- moving from very religious to non-religious and can see the same behaviors? And then you continue to assume the only way forward is to perpetrate that behavior. All…

> while claiming other people don't have the cognitive tools you do. I'm amazed this comment didn't get downvoted. it's the HN psuedo-intellectualism. Most HN readers tend to believe in their above-average intelligence, and that their view point comes from a place of rationalism and superior intellectual capability to analyse the world. I myself, also fall into this category.

What bonafides are needed to think ?

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#718

Post by dorchadas »

mistermann wrote: post #709
teddyh wrote: post #596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Taoism”, the religion , has, as I am given to understand, many of the normal trappings of religion, including formal dresses for priests, and, IIRC, quite a lot of alchemy. This is probably not the “Taoism” which you read about in western pop-culture paperbacks or hippie-age TV.

Perhaps they have priests with costumes, and I am not aware of any alchemy, but are these "shortcomings" in any sort of fundamental, materially important way?

It's 'internal alchemy' [0]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neidan

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#719

Post by dorchadas »

teddyh wrote: post #714
mistermann wrote: post #709

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps they have priests with costumes, and I am not aware of any alchemy, but are these "shortcomings" in any sort of fundamental, materially important way?

I mean, alchemy is not a really an advantage for a religion to include these days. Most religions have dropped their medical claims long ago.

It's worth noting that modern Daoist alchemy is internal alchemy [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neidan

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#720

Post by skissane »

Nursie wrote: post #594
skissane wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit Many of the residents of Wales who voted for Brexit are English: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-peop... The areas of Wales which identify the most strongly as Welsh had the some of the lowest votes for Brexit.

So we can cut it along perceived ethnic lines too? This is just more pernicious divisiveness. Those areas that are most Welsh also voted in significant numbers for Brexit. The people of the UK, in various proportions in various places, voted to leave the EU. It may suck, but pretending it’s purely an English problem is delusion. If you want someone to blame, blame the people that voted for Brexit everywhere. This exo…

> How can it be all about English Nationalism when a third of Scots voted that way too?

When did I ever say it was all about English nationalism? I think I only said that in your head.

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