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Goodbye Freenode

nedbatchelder.com

71–80 of 130 posts

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#71
post #15

While I agree that Libera is New Freenode and Old Freenode is rapidly dying a death, this whole episode has soured me mightily against Freenode as a whole. This should never have happened in the first place and the blame for it lies squarely at the OldFreenode/Libera admin's feet, not whichever outside actor took advantage of it. The admins are an "old boys network" - not chosen by the community, or elected, but simp…

For a little bit of ancient history: I was one of the admins who worked to create OFTC. We all knew each other from Open Projects Network (which rebranded as Freenode).

I was barely in high school when I came up with the name OFTC and I registered OFTC.net. Very early on in the process of creating OFTC, I agreed with all of the people I was creating OFTC with that I would behave as caretaker rather than owner of OFTC.net while we figured out our governance.

Ultimately we came up with a governance model, and we also managed to convince Software in the Public Interest to take custody of the domain name and have it managed in accordance with the governance model we designed.

We started with a pretty great group of both capable and well-intended people, and one of the things we figured out was that if OFTC was going to be a sustainable project, it needed more sustainable governance than the project we were leaving.

One of the key people behind the very early push for OFTC to have a stable governance model later became a Member of Parliament here in Canada.

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#72
post #7

At this point, it has been exceedingly clear that almost every project has jumped ship[0][1]. For weeks the leave list has grown to over 700 while the stay list is at 3. [0] https://github.com/siraben/freenode-exodus [1] https://isfreenodedeadyet.com/

According to one of the new ops for the now unofficial Freenode #fsf channel, #reactos may have stayed. If true, the count would be four.

> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org

> and i'm a reactos developer, though we're not on libera at all

> @freenode_CrystalMath:matrix.org

> we're only on freenode and mattermost

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#73
post #66
post #15

While I agree that Libera is New Freenode and Old Freenode is rapidly dying a death, this whole episode has soured me mightily against Freenode as a whole. This should never have happened in the first place and the blame for it lies squarely at the OldFreenode/Libera admin's feet, not whichever outside actor took advantage of it. The admins are an "old boys network" - not chosen by the community, or elected, but simp…

As the maintainer of one of the more popular IRC server implementations I know a giant chunk of the Libera Chat (formerly freenode) staff pretty well and whilst we may disagree frequently on technical choices they're decent people who were appointed based on technical merit. They pretty much didn't have any say in rasengan seizing control of freenode as Christel sold out the project and lied to the other staff about…

Hey Saber,

Thanks for everything you do on inspircd and IRCv3, I've been using the former for my network for nearly 15 years now.

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#74
post #66
post #15

While I agree that Libera is New Freenode and Old Freenode is rapidly dying a death, this whole episode has soured me mightily against Freenode as a whole. This should never have happened in the first place and the blame for it lies squarely at the OldFreenode/Libera admin's feet, not whichever outside actor took advantage of it. The admins are an "old boys network" - not chosen by the community, or elected, but simp…

As the maintainer of one of the more popular IRC server implementations I know a giant chunk of the Libera Chat (formerly freenode) staff pretty well and whilst we may disagree frequently on technical choices they're decent people who were appointed based on technical merit. They pretty much didn't have any say in rasengan seizing control of freenode as Christel sold out the project and lied to the other staff about…

[deleted]

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#75
post #63
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to rasengan, in his current incarnation as root, the irccloud thing wasn't accidental: what accidental irccloud blanket ban? I keep hearing about this? I think all of irccloud got k-lined briefly - shit happens It's intentional for sure. I think someone accidentally removed it. is there a public statement about that anywhere? (and then nobody ever responded as to why, so I'm afraid that's all I know wrt tha…

14:59 IRCCloud was not klined by mistake. 14:59 We don't allow IRCCloud on freenode. 14:59 We offer our own free BNC, if you'd like to use that instead.

Also

     irc cloud is banned cuz fck irc cloud
     this was not an accident
     not a mistake
     actually it was supposed to happen a logn time ago

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#76

„I was constantly messaging people telling them to use a competitor and I was banned.“ the entitlement of these people blow my mind.

Within IRC culture networks exist to serve the projects and users not the other way around. Failing to understand this is why leenode is losing users in the first place.

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#77
post #23

Many IRC networks have had drama. But does anyone know the motivation for recent actions by Freenode? I'm discounting conspiracy theories (e.g., flipping, sabotage) because I think anyone acting strategically wrt IRC knows that forking an IRC network has been part of the standard toolkit for responding to "damage", since almost the start. I'm starting to lean towards a theory of there being no longer being a business…

Andrew Lee also claims to be the Crown Prince of Korea - because he claims to be distantly related to a very old king, contacted one of the aging claimants to the throne who has no male children, and organized a "ceremony" with him in a Vietnamese restaurant in Beverly Hills.

I think if you want to form a theory of mind re his Freenode actions, you'd be well informed by forming a theory of mind re his Korea actions. Obviously part of it is the monarchist philosophy, the idea that an autocratic government over Korea with no input from the people is somehow worth something. Even in the case of the North, you couldn't call the restoration of the monarchy an improvement. And even in monarchism in general, there's still a vague idea of government by at least a little bit of consent from at least a few of the governed, from the Glorious Revolution to the concept of the Mandate of Heaven. The so-called crown prince has none of that.

But more interestingly, Lee thinks something happened at that dinner to make him crown prince. The claim to the throne by the scion in question is already disputed, and it's far from clear that he had the power, according to the old royal rules, to make some random person who happens to have the same last name his heir. And if he does, it would be via adoption, not via a "Passing of the Sword Ceremony" and a seafood entree. There's no evidence that Lee has once participated in the yearly cultural ceremonies in Korea that honor the late royalty and still to this day involve members of the former royal house - the other claimant to the throne does that. If you're not going to stick by the very practical rule that the legitimate ruler is the person physically on the throne, you at least need to stick by the rules of the royal house about legitimacy, and he's done neither.

I believe he approaches Freenode in the same way. He genuinely believes that it is possible and reasonable to transfer control of Freenode without the involvement or consent of Freenode's users and that the good users will stay loyal to the name "Freenode," instead of to the intangible community. So he didn't even anticipate the possibility that the staff would set up their own network and manage to move almost all of the community over. He also believes that all that needs to happen is to contact one person who has a bit of a claim to Freenode and arrange for DNS to be transferred, and everything will work itself out.

What we're seeing is him operating as if everything will soon work itself out, once he deals with a few small problems. Once people forget about Libera, once the uncooperative channel ops "spamming" suggestions to try Libera are removed, once #python is turned from a channel run by the PSF to a channel with Python enthusiasts, etc., Freenode will eventually emerge as the home of FOSS, like it's always been, and he'll be on the throne.

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#78
post #15

While I agree that Libera is New Freenode and Old Freenode is rapidly dying a death, this whole episode has soured me mightily against Freenode as a whole. This should never have happened in the first place and the blame for it lies squarely at the OldFreenode/Libera admin's feet, not whichever outside actor took advantage of it. The admins are an "old boys network" - not chosen by the community, or elected, but simp…

>If I were starting an IRC channel for a free software project now, I would put it on OFTC, which has a real governance model with elections and - mysteriously - also manages to be drama-free.

I'm not sure if it's completely drama-free. During the community meeting on the future of FSF's presence on IRC[1], someone shared these logs:

https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/01

https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/05/03

https://irclogs.thegrebs.com/oftc/2021/03/30

I don't know anything about the context of these exchanges, but nevertheless they make me worry about their moderation policies.

[1] - https://www.fsf.org/events/community-meeting-on-the-future-o...

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#79
post #4

The current Libera Chat[0] is everything that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: a stable IRC network that goes out of its way to be transparent to the communities and projects that use it and to provide them with stability and network operator support, period. The current Fleenode is nothing that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: it destroyed the stability of all the projects that previously…

> https://jobs.freenode.net/ - a Hacker News clone, just exclusively with job postings

Hacker News has "jobs"[0] too ;)

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/jobs

Re: Goodbye Freenode

#80
post #4

The current Libera Chat[0] is everything that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: a stable IRC network that goes out of its way to be transparent to the communities and projects that use it and to provide them with stability and network operator support, period. The current Fleenode is nothing that Freenode was before rasengan entered the game: it destroyed the stability of all the projects that previously…

I have finally pulled the plug on #lisp on Freenode as of few minutes ago.

Only logging bots remained connected and minion, and one fellow op.

And and of an era for me - I think it's been over 16 years since I joined #lisp for the first time, and around a decade of being an Op there. It helped me maintain sanity at times. While pretty much everything got moved to libera, it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt to do it in a way :|

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