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As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

631–640 of 823 posts

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#631
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted. You had something interesting to say, why'd you have to go and close it out with flamebait?

Fair enough what's a better wording. I'm trying to convey the mental models that are more natural in the religious world and lacking in the secular world (outside of philosophy )

> it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted.

Maybe: "it just means that you haven't recognized the secular ideology that you have adopted"?

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#632
post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted.

An alternative view, and one that, IMHO, is favored by Occam's razor (to name just one cognitive tool), is that both religious and secular ideologies are consequences of a more general human nature.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#633
post #235
post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

You obviously can find a lot of topics which people don’t have time thinking about, so they copy rituals and belief systems from their parents, other attachment figures, or even the media. The sources of those beliefs are decentralized though, and the individual person can pick beliefs which suit their whereabouts, environment, and sub culture best. Religion however is a centralized source of belief systems, which co…

I resonate with your comment very much. I always felt like some religions could be less poisonous if they were willing to change, or at least somewhat follow the actual morality of certain eras. For instance, in 2021 most people already realized that being gay is not evil. Most religious people I know tend to think otherwise.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For example, people used to believe the Book of Genesis literally, and now (I believe) most denominations take it allegorically. I wonder how many similar stories like that will we have in the future. For me, it always felt like the interpretation of the Holy Books are changing through time as we understand science more and more. And it feels ironic to me.

That's true. But even leaving science aside, and focusing only on non-falsifiable aspects of human ethics, there are many examples such as slavery where Christianity for example has changed over time quite radically (and not even linearly)

I asked about slavery in Reddit's DebateAChristian forum. Most Christians say that those part of the Bible needs to be understood in the context of those times where debt slavery was quite common and not considered evil. So we can't apply today's morality there. Well, at least these were the most common answers I got. There were also a person who told me that what "moral"/"good" means is _completely_ subjective (which is true to some extent), so I should not judge Exodus 21.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#635
post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

From my person experience, religious people have scammed/hurt me to the most in life and business.

Considering the sheer amount of religious people, this would hold true for most people

This also makes it a less important

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#636
post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christians, Muslims, etc, cannot even agree among themselves what their "belief system" is! I think you're overestimating how well-defined people's religious beliefs are, especially the average person's.

Muslims agree on who God is and who are his prophets.

They routinely kill each other over religious differences, so goes to show how much they agree.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#637
Any pattern of thoughts that has been grouped into a discipline, whether religious or secular, can - imo - be viewed as a best effort by a group or individual that was then adopted by the group. That doesn't mean they're equal, but I think it's helpful framing.

Setting aside fundamentalists, people are using combinations of these disciplines to make sense of life. Epiphanies which are liberating to me may be terrifying or unimportant to you and vice versa. The need to conform can be helpful on a societal level (particularly from a bird's-eye view) and harmful on an individual level. At some point, the individual harm affects enough individuals that there is a noticeable backlash, and we see some form of reorganization of beliefs.

Most people aren't built for serious thought. Maybe someone has a better idea than I do how it breaks down on the nature/nature scale, but the average person will always be more concerned with the signaling aspects of a given belief than the belief itself. As a human trying to survive or thrive, you increase your margin for error by squeezing into a group. How you choose the group or if it's chosen for you will again depend on some combination of internal and external factors.

Whether we like it or not, we're building this thing together, and it's to our benefit to be curious and compassionate about the beliefs of others. It doesn't mean converting or losing your religion, but if I understand what motivates you, I can propose comprises that work for both parties. Of cours, there will always be assholes who must have everything their way, but don't be cynical. Most people are capable of compromise, just as most people are capable of love and hope.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's so funny when people intentionally define anything as kind of religion in order to fit their worldview. Take it this way, scientific thinking/method is about a system to analyze. It can be used analyze anything(yourself, math, religion). It's like a function, where you put input data and try your best analyze critically to get an reasonable output. And it can even be used to analyze itself!(like higher order fun…

I'm not an 'atheism is just a religion', I don't believe in Gods, but I do think there secular ideologies. In the US context, the civil religion, the notions of the constitution, the military, and other institutions have take on a quasi-religious nature. Founding myths that become a spirit regardless of truthfulness. In general, cult of personalities are clearly examples of secular religion although one that can beco…

I am trying to explain the difference between 'not relying on belief' and 'believe the god doesn't exists' or 'believe ** therefore it's also a religion'. Because what op does seems to lump people to the latter. And that is what's missing critically.

Because there is a clean distinction between athism(not relying on belief) and antithesim. Scientific method is a lens of analysis tool and it's beyond the framing of belief as how religious people claims, or even how antithesim people claims. Just like how I would explain the same to the some antithesim group that science doesn't prove the god don't exist. That's still a misuse of the tool of scientific method. To believe the opposite is still a belief, and missing the mark of the scientific method where the most important part is the process not the result.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#639
post #593
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted. Not all secular beliefs are ideologies. I think there are two key common factors between religious beliefs and ideologies that call themselves "secular": First, people don't acquire the beliefs by considering and weighing evidence; they acquire them by being told them,…

>First, people don't acquire the beliefs by considering and weighing evidence; they acquire them by being told them, usually at a young age, by people they trust, and making them part of their identity. That's why people are so resistant to changing such beliefs. I've come across countless counter-examples to this in my life. A lot of the socialists/Marxists I've known come from relatively well of conservative famili…

I think all ideologies you list support your thesis. These are all examples of counter-ideologies. All of them have also led to ideological wars, including some of the most bloody conflicts in history.

But there are counterexamples. The Scientific Revolution grew out of Christianity more gradually, and with somewhat less friction. Although the Church did try to fight back, the output of the scientists was simply too valuable to local populations and leaders to be suppressed.

Likewise, many countries saw royalty and nobility gradually be replaced by the burgeoisie in a non-violoent manner. The main exception, France, was a lot less successful in this.

Later on, while Marxism led to revolution in the Russian Empire, the labor movement in northern Europe decided to distance themselves from Marx, and instead work for the proletariat by reform rather than revolution. Not by attacking the burgeoisie, but rather by collaborating with it, and by leveraging capitalism to fund a welfare state.

But then again, neither the burgeoisie or the labor movement represented a fundamentally new ideology. Rather, they both adopted and adapted the ideology already in place, which was carredi by some combination of religion, scientism and patriotism/nationalism. The ideologies DID evolve, but in these cases, not in an abrupt manner, dictated by a few "intellectual" ideologes. And most importantly, they did not treat the pre-existing system as a mortal enemy.

History will show where the new ideologies will lead. At the momement, they seem to be very concerned with identifying enemies and not very interested in compromise. There seems to be more appetetite for conflict than the world has seen since the 1930's, and it may be wise to prepare for some kind of rupture within the next 5-30 years.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#640
post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted.

The label "not religious" doesn't mean anything. People use it to refer to atheists, in which case you are alleging that atheists by definition don't have the tools to understand their own position - which is absurd. Others use the term to refer to minimally-practicing members of a faith who basically only show up to places of worship when there is an official event, in which case you argue that these people don't understand the reasons why they avoid their own religion until they become active practitioners.

> The secular world would benefit from adopting more formal definitions of their belief system.

First of all, a secular world doesn't preclude the population from being religious. Having a secular world that is explicitly separate from religion only means that society itself is not regulated by religion.

If by secular world you mean the percentage of the population who is atheist or agnostic, then you're not talking about a specific belief system. You're talking about a diverse group who have chosen to not believe in deities, and that often extends to not believing in the supernatural altogether. The allegation that this absence of belief happens without reflection is simply untrue. On the contrary, being an atheist is still a thorny path to take, even today. It doesn't happen passively.

> In the secular world these aspects exist but they are implicit, making them difficult to debate and attack.

When you say that these aspects are well codified in religion, what you really mean is that specific religions have behavioral codices that members must adhere to. The consequences of non-adherence depend on the religion and the society. But when you look at different religions, these codices are all quite different.

As soon as a population contains more than one religion, what you are touting as a benefit quickly becomes just as impossible as if you were dealing with an atheistic society.

What you find difficult to debate and attack is non-uniformity in general. I consider that a plus.

You are of course completely correct that a diverse society can appear more nebulous, and in some ways individuals can have a much harder time finding a path in life if they, well, have to actually go and find a path. This is a consequence of the freedom to choose. Systems that don't give you those freedoms are assigning a path to you from on high, or at least they heavily constrain your choices. No doubt some people would prefer that.

But the benefit of living in an open society is that you have the option of choosing to be religious, and you are free to choose any religion and any flavor. A secular society doesn't take that away in any form, it just means that your religion doesn't get to make the rules for people living outside of it.

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