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As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

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Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#581

Post by ryanbrunner »

Igelau wrote: post #399
rootusrootus wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> had I admitted not pouring maple syrup on my morning eggs and bacon. That sounds tasty. Can I be an honorary Canadian?

Heads up: that's probably peameal back bacon and not the pork belly bacon you're expecting.

Belly bacon strips are far more popular than peameal in Canada. Peameal for sure exists (unlike American "Canadian Bacon"), but 90% of people still have bacon that would be normal bacon to an American. If you go to a Canadian diner and order "bacon" unqualified, you'll get strips of belly bacon.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#582

Post by mdiesel »

bserge wrote: post #571
rsj_hn wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's just that they have no practical impact at all, That's funny because a system that kept a civilization together for 1000 years is being claimed to have "no value" by someone who has no idea how to keep any society together and is mimicking the conventional wisdom of those overseeing a disintegrating society as a result of this ignorance. Not only does the work of Aquinas have value, it has more value over the…

Good old "the world is going to shit". The simple reality is that it's always been this way and will likely be this way for a long time.

I've been fascinated listening to a podcast on the History of Rome (highly recommend). Rome wasn't built in a day, but also the fall of the empire was a period of about 300 years during which Rome itself was still called the "eternal city".

Not saying this as proof that the world is definitely going to shit, the point is that it I don't think we've achieved some new level of eternal civilisation that couldn't possibly fail. Every civilisation believed that right up until the point it stopped being true, so we should be on the look out for threats and not assume it will all end up OK.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#583

Post by amcoastal »

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

While your points are good your last paragraph projects a lot of weaknesses onto your readers. Do you believe you're the first person to come up with these points and realize them? Or perhaps that someone could have taken an opposite approach of yours -- moving from very religious to non-religious and can see the same behaviors? And then you continue to assume the only way forward is to perpetrate that behavior.

All while claiming other people don't have the cognitive tools you do. I'm amazed this comment didn't get downvoted.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#584

Post by FlyingSnake »

chakkepolja wrote: post #410
mssundaram wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am biased as a Hindu but I find that Hinduism stands apart here as a religion in that the emphasis is on one's own and the truths discovered therefrom rather than blindly accepting beliefs.

Hinduism is not a religion in western sense. We don't have a set list of doctrine and rules to follow. When I say I am allowed to be atheist or agnostic according to Vedas, your typical dumb Purohit also screams and tries to justify it's not that. It's almost like Vedas or Upanishads or the values they emphasize have no place in preist centered medieval / modern "Hinduism".

Your typical dumb purohit is not needed to follow Dharma. No one's going to issue a Fatwa if you do your own research and find your own way. You are free to choose between the Astika or Sramana or any of the heterodox schools. The doctrine is there but not in form of DIY commandments.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#585

Post by mattmanser »

dijit wrote: post #142
hilbertseries wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems that British nationalism runs pretty deep too, no? How else would you explain brexit?

British nationalism is built on building things up as British not tearing things down as unBritish. “‘Cor tea and digestives on a rainy day, what could be more british” National identity precludes other nationalities, which is largely the impetus for Brexit. Brits are not ever blamed for being unBritish, even if they don’t like football.

That's not true, we regularly judge people not doing things the 'right' way, but we just don't use the term 'un-British'. It's hard to explain, but there are code-phrases that some use like 'its not the done thing', or 'they're not our sort of people'.

Supporting football's not really 'British', and a fairly modern phenomenon. In the 80s it was deemed uncouth and heavily associated with hooliganism, but rehabilitated in the 90s, and is already falling out of fashion again.

Football support is heavily wrapped up in the complicated British classes, in the 90s/00s it was cool to pretend to be working class when you were middle class, and supporting football was a visible way of doing that.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#586

Post by gattilorenz »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #553
pdonis wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a system that kept a civilization together for 1000 years The fact that most people in a given civilization were Christians does not mean that the particular religious beliefs I was talking about were the ones that kept the civilization together. In fact, as the example I gave of religious wars over "homoousios" vs. "homoiousios" illustrates, those particular beliefs often caused problems that created huge rifts in…

>The fact that most people in a given civilization were Christians // It's somewhat orthogonal to your argument, but I'd doubt that most people in "Christian countries" (which is a heterodox notion) are/were Christians. Mostly people in the past seem to have followed a societal model, largely imposed as a firm of control. Where I grew up in the UK the village vicar was not a Christian according to most definitions (t…

> Catholicism has a lot of things that are contradictory to biblical Christianity

That's only true if you consider the Bible as the only source of revelation, which is not the case for Catholics, where Tradition is equally important.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#587

Post by dijit »

sammalloy wrote: post #535

After thinking about it for a very long time, I've come to believe that "religious faith" is ultimately a form of intellectual laziness, and every religious adherent of every faith that I've cornered after a nice meal and a few drinks has all but admitted as such.

I’m inclined to agree, though that does not preclude them being otherwise smart, kind, open etc.

I think also that we as humans have “religions” that are also intellectual cop-outs in other areas. Left vs Right, Capitalism vs >, Nationalism/Patriotism vs Globalism.

I find a lot of people don’t have nuance to their thinking they just blindly believe what ever they’ve settled in on, which leads to those funny “curb your capitalism/communism” YouTube videos, where people can’t defend closely held convictions.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#588

Post by failwhaleshark »

onion2k wrote: post #468
failwhaleshark wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religion, spiritual beliefs, ghosts, lottery ticket "investing," superstitions, luck, horoscopes, phobias, ritual sacrifices, Capgras delusions/changelings, and faith healing are examples of what I categorize as magical thinking. These are the ways of animals who cannot control their emotions long-enough to think clearly and honestly between banging on bones in front of a monolith. If the average member of society is…

phobias That's an odd thing to put in your list. Phobias aren't something people choose to believe in. They're specifically an irrational, subconscious pattern of behaviour. That isn't a belief.

It's only odd for people with external locus-of-control magical beliefs that things "just happen" to them. Phobias are irrational fears most people choose not to overcome. This is in contrast to people who aren't ruled by fear, and confront and overcome their fears. Therefore, a lack of agency argument would be moot. And, phobias aren't behaviors, they're dysfunctional, intrusive, reflex feelings related to particular triggers.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#589

Post by nzmsv »

pdonis wrote: post #488
rsj_hn wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's just that they have no practical impact at all, That's funny because a system that kept a civilization together for 1000 years is being claimed to have "no value" by someone who has no idea how to keep any society together and is mimicking the conventional wisdom of those overseeing a disintegrating society as a result of this ignorance. Not only does the work of Aquinas have value, it has more value over the…

> a system that kept a civilization together for 1000 years The fact that most people in a given civilization were Christians does not mean that the particular religious beliefs I was talking about were the ones that kept the civilization together. In fact, as the example I gave of religious wars over "homoousios" vs. "homoiousios" illustrates, those particular beliefs often caused problems that created huge rifts in…

> Ethical systems are not the same as the kinds of religious beliefs I was talking about. Ethical systems have practical consequences that can be tested.

Good luck testing one of the currently accepted "ethical system"-type religious beliefs.

The only kind of outcome of such a test that is "allowed" is full agreement with the ethical system. A lot of these systems are just as self-reinforcing and barely based in reality as Christian apologetics of Aquinas or Chesterton. The people holding these beliefs know this on some subconscious level and will viciously attack anyone who disagrees. It is only over time with many such "attacks" that a mass belief will die and be replaced by another one.

In fact, every one of these "ethical" religious beliefs came about the same way: it defeated another commonly agreed upon dogma.

This mechanism by the way is what runs civilization. One meme fighting another.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#590

Post by icelancer »

astrange wrote: post #424
icelancer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Believe science." Vox and others stealth-editing articles, people yelling at you if you don't blindly believe the CDC/WHO, etc. Science by its very nature is heretical, questioning, skeptical. "Belief" in science is exactly what we should not be doing, yet is pushed by the academic elites.

> Vox and others stealth-editing articles, people yelling at you if you don't blindly believe the CDC/WHO These two things are the opposite of each other. Would you prefer Vox not edit articles?

"stealth-editing"
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