As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen • Hacker News Board

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#491

Post by whatshisface » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 6:54 AM UTC

_-david-_ wrote: post #349

8note wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apostasy is a death penalty offence for some religions, and the cause of a fair number of wars in other religions. Its certainly frowned upon in general

I am talking about religion in general in the West (since that is what the article is about). People frequently stop being Christian for example.

Yes they do it, but that's clearly against the rules of their religion. You can only decide that a religion is not true while not practicing that religion, because curiously they all have the same virtue-associated principle of never reaching that conclusion.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#492

Post by tarsinge » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:00 AM UTC

jart wrote: post #413

simonklitj wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is rational? Is not rationality subjective? What you might deem irrational others might deem perfectly rational, and vice-versa, what you might deem rational others might deem quite obviously irrational. Are we to see experiences as rational explanation of a phenomena? Sure, I see and feel a rock, and I verify its existence rationally. I smell food and verify its existence rationally. What about people experienc…

Rational means you'll make choices that benefit yourself. It's one of the core assumptions of game theory, economics, and policymaking. All the math breaks as soon as that's not the case because irrational is unpredictable. What's nice about rational agency is that it makes cooperation without hierarchy possible so it's been known to rustle the jimmies of the first estate.

> What's nice about rational agency is that it makes cooperation without hierarchy possible

And economic liberalism is the belief system that it works for the greater good.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#493

Post by KozmoNau7 » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:27 AM UTC

irrational wrote: post #464

gameswithgo wrote: post #123

>The secular world would benefit from adopting more formal definitions of their belief system. Just as the religious world contains Christians, Jews, Scientologists, Muslims, Hindus, et cetc" with sometimes radically different ideas, the secular world too has a great many different people with different belief systems. >If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to rec…

>I just don't think there is a god. This would be agnostic (militant agnostic?), wouldn't it? I think a true atheist would say "I know that there is not a god."

Not really.

There are "I know that there is not a god" atheists, those are the insufferable unholier-than-thou types like Richard Dawkins, who seem mostly interested in provoking religious people.

And there are "there is no falsifiable proof at all to support the existence of a god" atheists, which are the ordinary sensible ones, who don't hate religious people, they just don't share their beliefs.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#494

Post by bwb » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:31 AM UTC

RGamma wrote: post #69

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you move to the USA from the developing world or even Eastern Europe, regardless of what job you do your salary immediately soars above whatever you made in your country of origin. Taxation on many consumer goods is also likely to be lower. (For example, electronics can be expensive elsewhere due to high import duties or VAT.) Of course, cost of living in the USA is also much higher, but nevertheless lots of immig…

At this point I think the EU should just set aside a nice space somewhere and make it a raw capitalist, no taxes, no regulations, no safety net zone. "Talent" seems to like that environment.

That would be terrible for anyone living there, as would the environment, and the environment of every country around that country, etc.

Regulation = Civilization, Taxes = Civilization, Safety Net = Civilization

Now that doesn't mean you want a regulatory nightmare, the USA has real problems with license monopolies and city regs in some areas, but you also don't want unrestricted capitalism like the USA has that destroys people, society, and the common environment. Europe has a lot of work to do as well but at least they grasp this fundamental concept. The middle ground between these two is always hard to nail perfectly.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#495

Post by textgel » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #39

Causality1 wrote: post #26

This is mirrored in the precipitously dropping support for freedom of speech in the US, especially among youth. As ideology becomes more intense heresy becomes less acceptable, and it seems if people can't quell heretical speech with threats of fire and brimstone they'll do it with legislation and police.

Freedom of speech isn’t a “non-ideological” ideal, and there’s not one single definition. For example, most liberals (in the classical sense) support free speech but are not absolutists; a libertarian might see that as repressive, while a progressive might see it as dangerous.

No it basically is. Nor does it have multiple definitions. The only people who claim it does are those trying to smuggle censorship in while calling it "freedom of speech".

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#496

Post by bwb » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:32 AM UTC

rejectedandsad wrote: post #30

bwb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

Yet people in most of Western Europe (discounting Switzerland and Luxembourg and maybe Norway) are objectively poorer than even the poorest American states.

"Yet people in most of Western Europe (discounting Switzerland and Luxembourg and maybe Norway) are objectively poorer than even the poorest American states. "

This is utter nonsense, how are you getting that?

Imagine that I offered you two deals:

1. You make $45k a year, but all your costs are 50% of the base rate. Plus health care is included that covers everything with no expenses, childcare is included, and college education is included.

2. You make $60k a year, but all your costs are 200% of the base rate. Health care isn't covered and covers nothing when you really get sick, childcare is $1500 a month per kid, and college is going to cost you half a million dollars.

Holistically Western Europe as a whole is doing way better for it's people.

"Recent studies suggest that there is less economic mobility in the United States than has long been presumed. The last thirty years has seen a considerable drop-off in median household income growth compared to earlier generations. And, by some measurements, we are actually a less mobile society than many other nations, including Canada, France, Germany and most Scandinavian countries. This challenges the notion of America as the land of opportunity"

https://www.pewtrusts.org/-/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/wwwpe...

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#497

Post by bwb » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:36 AM UTC

version_five wrote: post #21

bwb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

The "classic american dream" I believe involves being able to move up through hard work. At least in Canada, if we are moving people up class-wise it's by the government subsidizing them more than it is by rewarding hard work. So I believe the GPs point still stands.

That is not true based on the data.

Everyone in the world tries to move up through hard work, connections, and whatever advantages they are able to press.

"Recent studies suggest that there is less economic mobility in the United States than has long been presumed. The last thirty years has seen a considerable drop-off in median household income growth compared to earlier generations. And, by some measurements, we are actually a less mobile society than many other nations, including Canada, France, Germany and most Scandinavian countries. This challenges the notion of America as the land of opportunity"

https://www.pewtrusts.org/-/media/legacy/uploadedfiles/wwwpe...

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#498

Post by rsj_hn » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:37 AM UTC

rejectedandsad wrote: post #30

bwb wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't true if you mean in terms of achieving the classic American dream… Canada, Germany, the Netherlands and others are moving more people out of lower/middle class to middle/upper class as a percentage. I do not know in terms of raw numbers but via % we are behind.

Yet people in most of Western Europe (discounting Switzerland and Luxembourg and maybe Norway) are objectively poorer than even the poorest American states.

GDP per capita is lower, but household wealth is higher and when you add in all the benefits received (e.g. healthcare, pensions) you would get a pretty big difference between median household wealth in most of Western Europe and median HH wealth in the U.S., with western europe holding the advantage.

Comparing Europe and the U.S. is a complex business, and I find myself offending cheerleaders on both sides.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#499

Post by Thorrez » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:39 AM UTC

mustafa_pasi wrote: post #359

tonymet wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Atheism is actually polytheistic. The Gods can be identified by answering these questions: “why am I here?”, “who am i?”, “what should I do?”, “what is true?”, “why should I suffer & die?”, “what will happen tomorrow?”, “who matters more: myself or others?”. The deities of the secular religion would be “the self”, your parents, “the government/state and its figureheads“ , money (and the institutions controlling it),…

This is a standard argument most Christians make. It is not really true. You do not have to believe anything. You do not have to have answers. Let me give you an analogy. Imagine growing up in a militaristic society, and the expectation is that you join the military and fight in whatever wars your imperialistic country engages in. Now suppose you do not feel like doing that. Then your community starts asking you, "bu…

>You do not have to believe anything.

I think part of the confusion is there are multiple definitions of "atheist". One definition is someone who believes there is no god. That itself is a belief, so in that case your description doesn't match atheist. But another definition of atheist is someone who lacks a belief in god. So then your description would match atheist.

Also there are multiple definition of "agnostic" making the situation even more confusing.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#500

Post by bwb » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 7:44 AM UTC

SubuSS wrote: post #130

ardit33 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. when I lived in Sweden, I noticed that Swedes in general have less stuff. Smaller housing, fewer cars, less ability to buy stuff, and even go out. The average engineer salary was almost half (about 60%) of those in NYC and SF, while prices coffee/going out in Stockholm were almost the same as in NYC. Rent prices were lower though. But, their quality of life seemed higher overall. Less stressful in general, more…

The other catch I see is how ‘life changing’ your job as an engineer can be in us vs rest of the world. US definitely is the better bet for the young and risk taking. You can always go back and settled wherever you want after making a ton of cash in the US (assuming it works out), reverse isn’t true as much.

It is easy to confuse a large splashy salary with what a real "life changing" job is for the majority of people. A salary that pays for a good life, real health care that actually covers you when you get sick, a real safety net that gets you back on your feet if something goes wrong, an environment run by the rule of law, an environment that isn't polluted, and a country that is building a real future for ALL the people and not just engineers.

Would you want your kids to grow up in the USA?

That is usually a good question to ask, as it shows if we are succeeding as a country. I think the USA is great if you are in the ~10% of the population who want to make loads of money, work 80 hours, and are in tech/lawyer/doctor. Everyone else is stuck in the same cultural mentality IMO, it's like living in a persistent guerilla war that you don't want to be fighting in.