Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

401–410 of 823 posts

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#401

Post by mistrial9 »

ukj wrote: post #132
bobthechef wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that in the absence of what we conventionally call "religion" doesn't mean the essential character of religion is erased. Abandoning one religion means adopting another. Abandoning a religious faith with thousands of years of refinement for some quackery invented yesterday, especially without proportional reason, is not exactly the move of a sound mind. I also think religion serves a real need, but a…

What is the utility of truth? If it has none then I don’t need it. Reflexivity is precisely where meaning/religion comes from. From the self.

so -

You saw sagacious Solomon | You know what came of him | To him, complexities seemed plain | He cursed the hour that gave birth to him | And saw that everything was vain | How great and wise was Solomon | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's wisdom that had brought him to this state | How fortunate the man with none

You saw courageous Caesar next | You know what he became | They deified him in his life | Then had him murdered just the same | And as they raised the fatal knife | How loud he cried "you too my son!" | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's courage that had brought him to that state | How fortunate the man with none

You heard of honest Socrates | The man who never lied | They weren't so grateful as you'd think | Instead the rulers fixed to have him tried | And handed him the poisoned drink | How honest was the people's noble son | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's honesty that brought him to that state | How fortunate the man with none

Here you can see respectable folk | Keeping to God's own laws | So far he hasn't taken heed | You who sit safe and warm indoors | Help to relieve out bitter need | How virtuously we had begun | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's fear of God that brought us to that state | How fortunate the man with none

Source: LyricFind

Songwriters: Brendan Michael Perry / Bertolt Brecht / John Willett

How Fortunate the Man With None lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group, BMG Rights Management

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#402

Post by skissane »

Nursie wrote: post #386
skissane wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many would argue that Brexit was more about English nationalism than British nationalism. What makes the UK very complex is the coexistence of two layers of national identity – British layered over English, Scottish, Welsh, (Northern) Irish. Which layer a person identifies with is very often determined by their politics, and sometimes also by religious/cultural background. (British vs Irish identity in Northern Irela…

Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit. A third of Scots did. Without those votes the UK would not have left the EU. The idea it is purely an English phenomenon is divisive and pernicious.

> Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit

Many of the residents of Wales who voted for Brexit are English: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-peop...

The areas of Wales which identify the most strongly as Welsh had the some of the lowest votes for Brexit.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#404

Post by lotsofpulp »

friedman23 wrote: post #324
sidlls wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why bother? I don’t hold any belief strongly enough to merit such a reaction, though I might react negatively for other reasons. For example, past experience showing the insincerity of their own debate tactics and a lack of patience for rehashing it all yet again.

I don't know you and can't speak for you. But my point that all the people on here criticizing people on their moral systems are baseless stands. These same people would've been in the mob in salem executing so called witches a couple hundred years ago and would have been just as certain in their beliefs then.

It is funny seeing this:

> These same people would've been in the mob in salem executing so called witches a couple hundred years ago and would have been just as certain in their beliefs then.

after this:

> I don't know you and can't speak for you.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#406

Post by rsj_hn »

betterunix2 wrote: post #390
tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

"Few people understand that most religions e.g. Judaism and Christianity have an apologetic discipline – a deliberate arm open to debate." Just want to point out that Jewish apologetics is not the same as Christian apologetics. Christian apologists are working in furtherance of the Christian goal of converting everyone to Christianity. Jewish apologists are working only to prevent other Jews from being swayed by the…

> Jewish apologists are working only to prevent other Jews from being swayed by the arguments made by other religions (primarily those from Christian missionaries, who often target Jews specifically).

The Judaism when the Talmud was written was a fanatically proselytizing sect, as is clear if you read the talmud. They created seed outposts all over the Roman empire of new converts, as they sought (and obtained) special dispensation to be the only religion allowed to proselytize in ancient Rome and they had an active missionary service travelling all over the world seeking converts. These missionary efforts were quite successful, spreading judaism to the far reaches of the Roman Empire, creating enclaves of newly converted Jews in the major cities of the Western world. It is these enclaves that were most receptive to Christianity during its initial expansion, and in that period when Christianty was considered another sect of Judaism, the Christians also used the special dispensation given to Jews to gain converts. This created tension, where some of the Jews complained to the Roman authorities that these Christian Jews were not real jews and thus should not be allowed to proselytize under the dispensation alloted to jews. This information also forms the backdrop that helps understand early Christian history. For example, in the first apostolic council recorded in acts, what was meant by saying "Moses is preached in all the synagogues" when referring to new converts in Corinth, Rome, and Ephesus. It is because those new converts were either fully converted jews, themselves converted a few generations previously by Pharisee missionaries, or they were in some other stage of the conversion process, and so they, too, met in Synagogues, even in places like Ephesus, and thus the early Christian missionaries just went from Synagogue to Synagogue all over the Roman Empire, winning over the descendents of converts in communities that were previously won over to judaism.

The Pharisee missionary work is also mentioned in the New Testament, when Christ accuses the Pharisees, saying "You travel over land and sea to make one convert and when you do, he is twice the son of hell that you are."

This missionary program was so successful that much of the Talmud was written by the children of new converts, in new communities all over the Roman Empire. Rabbi Hillel's famous retort to a man demanding to know the meaning of the Talmud while standing on one leg was in a debate that was attempting to convert his (gentile) questionner to judaism. In fact the background to many of the famous passages in the talmud were attempts at conversion and evangelization. Knowing that is an important part of understanding these passages. These jewish communities also provided sancturary to fleeing Jews after the Romans expelled them from Palestine in the wake of the third revolt - they were taken in by the descendents of new converts created by Pharisees, and these cities became the seed communities of jews in Europe and North Africa.

But it is true that modern Judaism does not try to convert others and has become a racial identity as much or moreso than a religious identity, however this was not the case for those rabbis when the mishna was compiled or when the oldest portions of the Gemara were first written.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#407

Post by swiley »

version_five wrote: post #129
fatsdomino001 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Canada is about to revert to the mean in a very hard way though, so I wouldn't count on that statistic too much.

I'm also curious to have more details. I'm Canadian and historically have been a big proponent of our country, to the point of smugness. But I'm currently very bearish on our future and curious to hear what others are thinking.

The continued closure of our shared land border doesn't indicate to me that you guys are headed in the direction of reason.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#408

Post by chakkepolja »

tonymet wrote: post #170
pdonis wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted. Not all secular beliefs are ideologies. I think there are two key common factors between religious beliefs and ideologies that call themselves "secular": First, people don't acquire the beliefs by considering and weighing evidence; they acquire them by being told them,…

Let’s be honest, most people don’t have the time to weigh the evidence of say 90% of their beliefs. They go to school & watch television, and generally adopt the beliefs of their surroundings. And believing that religious believers accept 100% of religious belief without reasoning about them is a misunderstanding.

> And believing that religious believers accept 100% of religious belief without reasoning about them is a misunderstanding.

Had they reasoned about them, most 2000 year old customs would have hardly survived.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#409

Post by FpUser »

Igelau wrote: post #399
rootusrootus wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> had I admitted not pouring maple syrup on my morning eggs and bacon. That sounds tasty. Can I be an honorary Canadian?

Heads up: that's probably peameal back bacon and not the pork belly bacon you're expecting.

Sorry to disappoint. Just your regular pork belly bacon. Old style thick slices.

Anyways being way older I am now more into BBQ and veggies.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#410

Post by chakkepolja »

mssundaram wrote: post #392
whatshisface wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Few people understand that most religions e.g. Judaism and Christianity have an apologetic discipline – a deliberate arm open to debate. Open to talking about it, sure, but the crucial element that separates apologetics from real debate is that one side is forbidden from changing their mind. In religion there is a rule overshadowing the exchange of ideas that says, "no matter how convinced you are, or how weak your…

I am biased as a Hindu but I find that Hinduism stands apart here as a religion in that the emphasis is on one's own and the truths discovered therefrom rather than blindly accepting beliefs.

Hinduism is not a religion in western sense. We don't have a set list of doctrine and rules to follow.

When I say I am allowed to be atheist or agnostic according to Vedas, your typical dumb Purohit also screams and tries to justify it's not that.

It's almost like Vedas or Upanishads or the values they emphasize have no place in preist centered medieval / modern "Hinduism".

Post reply on HN