As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen • Hacker News Board

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#391

Post by rootusrootus » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

rsj_hn wrote: post #333

colinmhayes wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People have spent millenia thinking about rational answers to those questions. It's easy enough to find answers, but much like with religion there is no consensus. The answers follow a much more rigorous logic then "god said so" though. I'm not a moral nihillist because that's not a thing, but I am a moral anti-realist because it's clear that there are no intrinsic moral laws. It's all preference based.

It is not all preference based, as very few moral systems lead to thriving societies that are stable and able to self-reproduce rather than collapsing back into chaos. In fact, almost none do. Take a look at the ten commandments. "Honor thy father and mother so that it may be well with you and you may live long in the land". What happens when generation n+1 thinks they are morally superior to generation n? The same a…

There is such a wide gulf between what religious folk (well, American religious folk at least) think they represent, and how they actually act. E.g. my brother-in-law is a devout Christian and is extremely fond of saying 'What would Jesus do' and then proceeding to do the opposite.

What is tearing apart America right now? Politics? No. Evangelical politics. It does not bring stability.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#392

Post by mssundaram » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #149

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> Few people understand that most religions e.g. Judaism and Christianity have an apologetic discipline – a deliberate arm open to debate. Open to talking about it, sure, but the crucial element that separates apologetics from real debate is that one side is forbidden from changing their mind. In religion there is a rule overshadowing the exchange of ideas that says, "no matter how convinced you are, or how weak your…

I am biased as a Hindu but I find that Hinduism stands apart here as a religion in that the emphasis is on one's own and the truths discovered therefrom rather than blindly accepting beliefs.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#393

Post by tharkun__ » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

gameswithgo wrote: post #123

>The secular world would benefit from adopting more formal definitions of their belief system. Just as the religious world contains Christians, Jews, Scientologists, Muslims, Hindus, et cetc" with sometimes radically different ideas, the secular world too has a great many different people with different belief systems. >If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to rec…

Picking up on the "is there a god" and who believes in it?

I have always wondered how many of the high priests or whatever their titles might be in any religion over the millenia (this includes Aztecs and Vikings etc) really just saw religion as another way of holding power (vs. kings or what have you). I.e. "just pretending" to believe and in reality just using it to to wield power and influence over people.

Please don't mistake this for saying there aren't very pious people in that group. I do not doubt there are. I just wonder. Just like there are politicians that truly try and improve things and help their constituents and then there are also the ones that really just enjoy having the power and that really couldn't care less until election time rolls around.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#394

Post by Igelau » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> If you believe you are not religious, it just means that you don’t have the cognitive tools to recognize the secular ideology that you have adopted.

You had something interesting to say, why'd you have to go and close it out with flamebait?

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#395

Post by analog31 » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:17 AM UTC

deertick1 wrote: post #223

rootusrootus wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give me an example or two to clarify? Many things might not be well known to someone, but could be if they wanted to track down that information. That's a little different than something which has to be taken on faith by everyone .

Well the scientific method is fundamentally faith based in that we assume that there are immutable properties of thebuniverse that can be discovered and that our perception allows us to interrogate these properties. Yes this is a very well corroborated claim, but fundamentally faith based nonetheless.

I look at it in a different way, like a game. Science is not a belief about the properties of the universe.

Rather, science is an inquiry into what can be learned about the universe under certain limiting assumptions. Like a game, it has certain rules, at least on a tentative basis.

To make an analogy, chess seeks to find out what kinds of tactics can defeat the enemy's King under assumptions about how the Queen can move, but does not imply a belief or faith about Queens.

Science doesn't preclude parallel games or fields of inquiry being played under different rules, such as the theologies of religions, perhaps political ideologies, literature, music, and so forth. Some people play multiple games at once. My parents were educated in theology, but became good scientists. I'm a scientist but also a musician.

In my view, the thing that makes science stick out is not its relationship to religion, but its success. I think that in the 17th century, scholars mostly assumed that science would peter out -- it would run into a brick wall, or merge with theology. That it has done neither of those things could not have been predicted at the time, and inspires a certain amount of awe today, as well as an attraction to curious minds.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#396

Post by meroes » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:19 AM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

Religion is more easily codified because it does not change as quickly as the secular world. I do not think codification is realistic or desirable tbqh.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#397

Post by godelski » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:20 AM UTC

paulpauper wrote: post #135

This is a commonly held view among the punditry. But the author ignores the obvious counterexample: all the division in the 50s, 60s, and 70s such as over desegregation, civil rights, abortion, and the Vietnam war, despite higher rates of religiosity. You cango farther back: the civil war. America has always been deeply divided.

I think the obvious counter example is the fact that there's a lot of political extremism in the bible belt. The extremism seems to be more homogeneously distributed where lack of religion isn't.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#398

Post by bjcy » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

FpUser wrote: post #210

underwater wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "truth" you see is the designed outcome of soft diplomacy through the export of US culture via movies, television and the internet. I know lots of non-US folk who love the values and opportunities they experience in America. But I also know lots of others who don't. I see my own country adopting more and more aspects from America: individualism over community, the excessive consumerism, the Starbuck-ification of…

I am curious how being "individualists" had them end up with something like Homeowners Associations. I am an individualist myself to a relatively high degree and I do not understand how something like that can be tolerated at all.

My first inclination is that the individualism has turned from (admittedly, rosy nostalgia follows here) a propensity towards creative expression and unique identity amongst the whole, into an assertion of control that serves my needs at the expense of others. In my experience, while HOAs can be well-intentioned, they provide easy opportunity for people to build small kingdoms, and for most, being a king is quite tempting.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#399

Post by Igelau » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:24 AM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #209

FpUser wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Long time ago I was accused of being "un-Canadian(TM)" by neighbor because I do not watch hockey. Actually I do not watch sports at all but it did not matter to him. God knows what would've happened had I admitted not pouring maple syrup on my morning eggs and bacon.

> had I admitted not pouring maple syrup on my morning eggs and bacon. That sounds tasty. Can I be an honorary Canadian?

Heads up: that's probably peameal back bacon and not the pork belly bacon you're expecting.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#400

Post by failwhaleshark » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:31 AM UTC

joe_the_user wrote: post #284

slibhb wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of whether "everyone is religious," everyone certainly has revelatory beliefs, i.e. beliefs that were not reasoned to. Christian thinkers have spilled a lot of ink attempting to clarify the boundary between reason and revelation whereas, in the secular world, many people do not seem to understand that many of their beliefs (particularly the foundational ones) are revealed.

As a non-religious person, certainly I understand many of my beliefs come from convention or intuition or whatever non-rational source, sure. But I don't have any meta-belief telling me to hold onto given beliefs-that-seem-implausible-or-unverifiable because I'll be rewarded in the end or because it's a test or whatever. I don't continually change whatever belief I know is arbitrary but that's because consistency has…

Religion, spiritual beliefs, ghosts, lottery ticket "investing," superstitions, luck, horoscopes, phobias, ritual sacrifices, Capgras delusions/changelings, and faith healing are examples of what I categorize as magical thinking.

These are the ways of animals who cannot control their emotions long-enough to think clearly and honestly between banging on bones in front of a monolith.

If the average member of society is ever to progress beyond being a bunch of easily-misled rubes herded into tribal cult ideological pens, something needs to change where decent, intelligent people are lionized over minimally-useful celebrities and charlatans.

(The United States was founded by primarily anti-intellectual merchants and landowners who scoffed at the Old World's stodginess and intellectual pursuits.)