As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen • Hacker News Board

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#381

Post by klipt » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 1:54 AM UTC

pengstrom wrote: post #342

klipt wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One example I've noticed of a non-religious group acting similarly to a religious group is certain very online feminist communities. Instead of original sin, they believe that society hates women, and this is the root of all society's problems. Instead of regular repentance, they advise regularly checking your privilege / fighting your internalized misogyny. Anyone who questions their beliefs must be a heretic who ha…

With the exception of being based on analysis and generally welcoming genuine inquiry.

Any community based on analysis doesn't fall under the set I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the kind of people who would look at an abused man and assume, a priori, that he did something to deserve it, because their worldview precluded the idea that anyone other than women can be abused.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#382

Post by opportune » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 1:56 AM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #363

opportune wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your recognition of explicit vs. implicit ideology is addressed by Slavoj Zizek in some of his work. He generalizes ideology to be mostly a set of assumed or unstated beliefs and ideas which are so internalized they are not even consciously recognized. Could be good further reading for those further interested in the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavoj_%C5%BDi%C5%BEek_bibliog... One of the main points of Zi…

I agree with you , and have been influenced by Zizek. We assume religions are primitive , but it’s likely that they are advanced stages of earlier ideologies. I’m expecting contemporary / secular ideology to evolve into a formal religion with canon , priesthood etc

Arguably that already exists in the form of politics/government, corporations, the military.

Based on my opinion that religion requires a belief in supernatural events, I would not call those religion per se. Definitely dogmatic. I think the parallels come from the tendency for human organizations to all take essentially the same structure, if you squint.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#383

Post by andrepd » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:02 AM UTC

The ten commandments have things to say about working on Saturdays or fucking people whom you have not married, but don't have a word on the topic of slavery (in fact it is amply condoned in the Bible, incl. by Jesus, together with myriad other atrocities).

This is trash morality which you should have zero respect for. It's only understandable if you take it for what it really is: Bronze age Middle-Eastern mythology.

> where the rich are told they should be generous to the poor versus telling the poor that they have a right to something possessed by the rich.

But of facking course. Indeed, one of the major purposes of organized religion is keeping the masses in check.

“Why peasant, perhaps you are starting to question why you toil in back breaking work and neither you nor your family will ever have any rights or anything to your name, while the lord of the manor feasts on the food that you have produced without ever so much as grabbing a plow in his life? Perhaps you even start to think that you're not so much different, you and him, that you are both human?

Perhaps, god forbid, you are starting to believe that a more just way to distribute labour and rewards could be yours? That you should struggle and take what should be yours?

Can't have that no! Here:

- Honour your """natural""" superiors

- Obey god (i.e. the priests and clergy)

- Do not covet what's not yours

That should do it. Obey these commandments or you'll go to hell for eternity!”

How convenient.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#384

Post by andrepd » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:04 AM UTC

friedman23 wrote: post #312

TimPC wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an entire branch of Philosophy called Ethics that gives us better answers to these questions and a better framework for grappling with them then religion ever has. It is quite arrogant to assume that atheists have no answers at all to these questions.

Ah yeah, good argument, a field of study exists. Given you are a well educated atheist you can explain the underpinnings of your morality right?

Yes. A set of ab initio values and the golden rule as a base, and societal consensus to work out the finer details.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

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Post by mistermann » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:05 AM UTC

whatshisface wrote: post #149

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

> Few people understand that most religions e.g. Judaism and Christianity have an apologetic discipline – a deliberate arm open to debate. Open to talking about it, sure, but the crucial element that separates apologetics from real debate is that one side is forbidden from changing their mind. In religion there is a rule overshadowing the exchange of ideas that says, "no matter how convinced you are, or how weak your…

Do you believe this applies to Taoism? At least by my interpretation, it lacks many of the shortcomings of other religions.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

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Post by Nursie » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:07 AM UTC

skissane wrote: post #139

hilbertseries wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems that British nationalism runs pretty deep too, no? How else would you explain brexit?

Many would argue that Brexit was more about English nationalism than British nationalism. What makes the UK very complex is the coexistence of two layers of national identity – British layered over English, Scottish, Welsh, (Northern) Irish. Which layer a person identifies with is very often determined by their politics, and sometimes also by religious/cultural background. (British vs Irish identity in Northern Irela…

Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit. A third of Scots did. Without those votes the UK would not have left the EU.

The idea it is purely an English phenomenon is divisive and pernicious.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

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Post by andrepd » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

hilbertseries wrote: post #126

alkonaut wrote: post #71

I want to point out that this is incorrect: > It’s rare to hear someone accused of being un-Swedish or un-British—but un-American is a common slur, slung by both left and right against the other. Being called un-American is like being called “un-Christian” or “un-Islamic,” a charge akin to heresy. In fact to be unswedish is not just a common idiom it’s a positive one. It’s when you don’t show the typical negative Swe…

Seems that British nationalism runs pretty deep too, no? How else would you explain brexit?

> How else would you explain brexit?

The economy. I'm sure there's an undercurrent of xenophobia and "little England"-ism which explains it, but it's not the full picture. Probably the biggest factor is that neoliberalism has been fucking working class people over since Thatcher. It's (sadly) empirically demonstrated that economic hardship pushes people to right-wing populism (see the 1930s, and the 2010s).

Marx was right, history is moved by the material conditions of people (not fully, but in large part).

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#388

Post by failwhaleshark » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:12 AM UTC

A lot of people need their tribal cults ego-boosters because they can't stand on their own two feet and need the safety of a herd.

Flat Earthers, Trumpism, Bernie-ism, Tim Ferrissism, antivaxx, neoliberalism, neoconservatism, QAnon, radical political terrorism (under various religious banners), raw veganism, juice cleanse, miracle mineral solution, no maskers, forever maskers, and so on.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

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Post by godelski » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:14 AM UTC

freshhawk wrote: post #25

Uh ... is it news to people that american nationalism is a very religious belief system? It isn't to outsiders, I definitely heard this comparison made when I was in school ... which was the 90's. This also feels more like americans adjusting to having explicit ideological beliefs in the first place, since the decades-long political monoculture is breaking up. There is an interesting religious feel to party affiliati…

It isn't. Politics being the new religion and growing amounts of atheism and agnosticism has commonly been the scapegoat. But it is easy to disprove. The South is extremely religious and just as radical (if not more) than the areas of the country that aren't as religious. If it was the lack of religion we'd see the political fervor be less homogeneously distributed (and similarly if religion caused this division).

Neither is this news to people nor is it a good claim. But it is a believable claim so that's why we're talking about it.

Re: As religious faith has declined, ideological intensity has risen

#390

Post by betterunix2 » Sun, Jun 13, 2021, 2:15 AM UTC

tonymet wrote: post #93

Becoming more religious has helped me identify religious tendencies in the secular world. Ideology doesn’t imply supernatural deities, and some worldly phenomenon can be elevated to a supernatural level. Secular belief contains rituals, origin stories, deities, saints, priesthood, blasphemy, vice & virtue just as religion does. One aspect of religion I appreciate is that these aspects are well codified and debated –…

"Few people understand that most religions e.g. Judaism and Christianity have an apologetic discipline – a deliberate arm open to debate."

Just want to point out that Jewish apologetics is not the same as Christian apologetics. Christian apologists are working in furtherance of the Christian goal of converting everyone to Christianity. Jewish apologists are working only to prevent other Jews from being swayed by the arguments made by other religions (primarily those from Christian missionaries, who often target Jews specifically).

That aside, what makes you think apologetics represents an openness to debate? I cannot speak for Christians, but Jewish apologetics only exists because other groups are trying to lead Jews to conversion to another faith, and apologetics holds little value within the framework of Judaism itself. What non-Jews think of Judaism is irrelevant because proselytizing is not a requirement (it is not forbidden, but it is also not encouraged and conversion is a deliberately difficult process). Judaism certainly has an openness to debate, but the debate is within Judaism itself -- what is the right way to practice the Jewish religion? What is the right way to interpret and understand Jewish holy books? Judaism is not open to debates about the need for Jews to practice Judaism; the covenant between Jews and God is an axiom.