Live data from Hacker News

Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

bloomberg.com

951–960 of 1001 posts

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#951

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a troubling trend that I see in my sons and that I battle in myself. Why go out and compete for money, success and sex when those things are at your fingertips. I really think it’s as simple as “turn off the TV”. The problem is that the world is a hard place, and games/porn offer a “good enough” alternative that offsets the trouble of putting yourself out there. Sorry for making this thread weird by bringing…

No, it's absolutely part of the equation. The internet has been an absolute game changer for how the human libido is satisfied. Pornography went from something rarely seen and socially awkward to acquire to something that is now ubiquitous, instant access, and even individualized. In fact, you have to go out of your way to avoid seeing sexual content on the internet.

Or brains and reward-systems have evolved for an existence as semi-nomadic subsidence hunter-gatherers. We're not equipped to deal with "temptations" modern society has to offer.

While porn might be a particularly good example, there's plenty of other traps as well. Social media, games, gambling, ...

All that is geared towards maximized 'engagement', e.g. to make us as addicted as possible in as little time as possible. It plays into our worst tendencies.

https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#952

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also an obvious selection bias - the matches may be sending low quality messages, but if women are largely selecting only the top 2% of good looking men they're skewing these results themselves. The 'better' men never get to the messaging stage at all. I'm happy to be out of the game, but online dating is bleak for 98% of men. Okcupid used to have great data on this before they sold out, a lot of it ended up…

Do you mind if you can explain okcupid selling out? I'm currently on the platform.

The founders sold to match.com a few years back.

After that the cool data blog was killed.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#953
Young Men Who Endorse The Masculine Ideal of Success Enjoy Greater Psychological Wellbeing. [1]

Recently it’s been difficult to avoid the mantra that masculinity is toxic. There’s that viral Gillette advert encouraging men to be nicer (provoking a mix of praise, scorn and outrage); and the claim from the American Psychological Association (APA), in its promotion for its new guidelines on working with men and boys, that “traditional masculinity—marked by stoicism, competitiveness, dominance and aggression—is, on the whole, harmful” – a message welcomed by some, but criticised by many others, including Steven Pinker who dubbed it “ludicrous” and the British clinical neuropsychologist Vaughan Bell, who described the campaign as “an amazing misfire“.

The APA report has been criticised on many grounds, including its oversight of the biological roots of masculinity, but the most frequently mentioned issue is with the overly simplistic, sweeping nature of the “masculinity is toxic” message. Traditional masculinity clearly reflects a host of values, beliefs and behaviours, some of which may indeed be harmful in certain circumstances, but some of which may also be beneficial, at least some of the time. Coincidentally, a paper in the January issue of the APA journal Psychology of Men and Masculinity captures just a little of this complexity. Responding to the lack of longitudinal research on this topic, and the concerns that potential positive aspects of masculinity have been overlooked, the new study measured nearly 300 young male college students’ endorsement of traditional masculinity at one time point, in the spring of their freshman year, and then measured their wellbeing six months later.

The findings are mixed, but given the recent cultural emphasis on toxic masculinity, one result stands out: young men who, on the “Conformity to Masculine Norms” scale, more strongly endorsed the masculine ideal of “success and winning” (they agreed with statements like “In general, I will do anything to win”), tended to score higher on psychological wellbeing six months later. “Men who adhere to this norm may experience a sense of mastery and achievement through their accomplishments,” said the researchers, led by Aylin Kaya at the University of Maryland, “which can in turn boost their eudaemonic well-being.” In contrast, and more in keeping with the message emanating from Gillette/the APA and others, the men who endorsed the masculine “Playboy” ideal (they agreed strongly that “If I could, I would frequently change sexual partners”) and/or the “power” ideal (“In general, I control the women in my life”) tended to report lower wellbeing six months later.

At the study start, the men also completed the “Gender Role Conflict” questionnaire (a scale developed in the 1980s ostensibly to explore problems arising from men’s aversion to femininity) and those who scored highly on the Restricted Emotionality sub-scale – for instance, they agreed “I have difficulty expressing my emotional needs to my partner” – also tended to report lower wellbeing six months later. However, critics might point out that this correlation is almost inevitable as the items related to Restricted Emotionality are phrased in a negative way that assumes emotional control is a problem, such that it would be odd if a high score on this sub-scale was not associated with subsequent reduced wellbeing. A stronger case against traditional masculinity would be made by results showing that men who felt they successfully and deliberately controlled their emotions went on to experience diminished wellbeing, but such a finding seems highly unlikely given the shelves of evidence documenting the positive consequences of having more mental and emotional self-control.

It’s worth noting that the men’s endorsement, or not, of the majority of the norms that were measured by the “Conformity to Masculine Norms” scale did not, on their own, have a statistically significant association with their wellbeing six months on (positive or negative), including: “heterosexual-presentation” (being concerned to be perceived as straight); “self-reliance” (not wanting to seek help); “violence” (endorsing violence as a suitable response in some situations); “risk” (willingness to put oneself in risky situations); and “emotional control”.

Kayla and her colleagues said that the negative associations of the “Playboy” and “power” masculine norms with later wellbeing supported earlier cross-sectional work linking the endorsement of these norms with negative mental health outcomes in men. However, they added that the positive association between endorsing the “winning” norm and later wellbeing “is consistent with our hypothesis and with previous research that has indicated in certain contexts, adherence to dominant masculine norms may contribute to positive mental health.”

Of course, these new results come with their own important caveats – they may not generalise to other groups beyond young American men at college, and they are based entirely on participants’ self-reports of their own values and wellbeing. Clearly more longitudinal research is needed, arguably using scales that are not phrased with an inherent bias against traditional masculine values, and also including outcome measures not only for the men themselves, but also for those people who live and work with them.

However, these results do provide a more nuanced take on the simplistic idea that traditional masculinity is entirely toxic, a point worth considering alongside the weight of research showing the benefit to children of having a father involved in their upbringing (a point that, hidden behind the “toxic masculinity” headlines, is acknowledged fully in the new APA report; pdf).

[1] https://digest.bps.org.uk/2019/01/18/young-men-who-endorse-t...

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#954

This thread is full of people talking about cultural, societal, and economic factors that may influence this outcome. I've yet to see anyone mention the factor that I wish we more thoroughly investigated: health. This has been discussed in some articles at length, but we still haven't identified primary causes, but testosterone levels are falling in men (at a given age) at a pretty steady pace year over year. This is…

> despite having marketable and useful skillsets that would provide them gainful employment. Without exception, every person I know like this suffers from mental health issues, predominantly anxiety Alternate hypothesis to low T: it’s the rituals of job interviews that keep them unemployable. As you said, these guys have skills to do the work: the problem is in connecting these men to the jobs in the first place.

This is it. This is the answer. It's shameful that nobody else here gets it.

Many of these people are autistic and/or ADHD. Autism, ADHD, and job interviews do not mix. The prejudice against these groups that's baked into the process (for no real gain) is unbelievable.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#955

This thread is full of people talking about cultural, societal, and economic factors that may influence this outcome. I've yet to see anyone mention the factor that I wish we more thoroughly investigated: health. This has been discussed in some articles at length, but we still haven't identified primary causes, but testosterone levels are falling in men (at a given age) at a pretty steady pace year over year. This is…

[deleted]

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#956

This thread is full of people talking about cultural, societal, and economic factors that may influence this outcome. I've yet to see anyone mention the factor that I wish we more thoroughly investigated: health. This has been discussed in some articles at length, but we still haven't identified primary causes, but testosterone levels are falling in men (at a given age) at a pretty steady pace year over year. This is…

There are no PCBs in PTFE/Teflon, what are you talking about? Also the soy thing is nonsense.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#957
post #920

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive me, but then it is not the kind of equality we should strive for. I want everyone on better, higher footing, not the highly footed to be brought down.

Are you saying that all lives matter?

No.

But I am saying that a black person should be able to get as good a legal counsel as a while person, among innumerable other things.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#958
post #956

This thread is full of people talking about cultural, societal, and economic factors that may influence this outcome. I've yet to see anyone mention the factor that I wish we more thoroughly investigated: health. This has been discussed in some articles at length, but we still haven't identified primary causes, but testosterone levels are falling in men (at a given age) at a pretty steady pace year over year. This is…

There are no PCBs in PTFE/Teflon, what are you talking about? Also the soy thing is nonsense.

You’re correct that there are no PCBs in Teflon. I was using the term for brevity, but I’m really referring to as a class all of the Persistent Organic Pollutants or “forever chemicals”, several of which are specifically used in the production of Teflon, primarily PFOA and PFOS. Which also aren’t technically /in/ Teflon, but are used during manufacturing and can be released under some conditions afterwards.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#959
post #803

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toss programming in, and you've listed off about all of the best things humanity's ever offered to date.

Definitely a good list, but I'd add a few more that just aren't around as much anymore. Things like spear-hunting mega fauna, traveling with the great herds and just enjoying the endless bounty of nature. The world was once much wilder and more abundant with major species. Lions in Europe etc. But yeah, we had so much fun chasing those critters around, we drove a lot of them to extinction and now must satisfy ourselv…

+1 for the phrase "spear-hunting mega fauna"

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#960
post #539

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agrarian societies had cyclic work. Some societies could be especially arduous, but the most successful and populated areas weren't. For large chunks at a time throughout the year the farming population didn't have more than daily chores and personal projects. But of course during planting and harvesting they would work their asses off. A lot of the rest of the time was personal preference. You could make your house…

Romans had statues why cant we have our own arts revolution

Most art isn't profitable.
Post reply on HN