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Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

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Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#261

Post by cromwellian »

effie wrote: post #256
cromwellian wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Statistically, people who are not vaccinated contribute to the spread of the virus. The fact that any one person who isn't vaccinated may not be infected is not relevant. You're using the existence of a few exceptions to prove the rule. We know there are a few people who were born immune to the HIV virus. Does that mean it's ok for everyone to assume they have this kind of immunity and not practice safe sex? Crazy. >…

> Does that mean it's ok for everyone to assume they have this kind of immunity and not practice safe sex? Crazy. It is a personal responsibility of the participants. When people have natural (no rubber) sex it is none of anybody else's business to control how they do it, except if there is intentional spreading of disease. You have to prove bad intent to harm or spread disease, then you are right that intervention i…

"We use rather political process and respect individual freedoms even if those are unscientific (religion, refusing transfusion, refusing vaccines, etc.)"

You're welcome to die in ignorance if you want. But the rest of society is free to ostracize you. Businesses can deny you access. Schools can deny your kids entry. And through the political process, can restrict your interactions in other ways.

Your "freedom" stops when you run up against *my freedom" to have a diseased lunatic close enough to spread their disease to me.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#262

Post by effie »

cromwellian wrote: post #261
effie wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Does that mean it's ok for everyone to assume they have this kind of immunity and not practice safe sex? Crazy. It is a personal responsibility of the participants. When people have natural (no rubber) sex it is none of anybody else's business to control how they do it, except if there is intentional spreading of disease. You have to prove bad intent to harm or spread disease, then you are right that intervention i…

"We use rather political process and respect individual freedoms even if those are unscientific (religion, refusing transfusion, refusing vaccines, etc.)" You're welcome to die in ignorance if you want. But the rest of society is free to ostracize you. Businesses can deny you access. Schools can deny your kids entry. And through the political process, can restrict your interactions in other ways. Your "freedom" stops…

You shot some strawman here. You don't have a freedom or right to be in sterile environment when you are out in public space. The germs are out there, deal with it rationally and with respect to other people.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#263

Post by cromwellian »

effie wrote: post #262
cromwellian wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We use rather political process and respect individual freedoms even if those are unscientific (religion, refusing transfusion, refusing vaccines, etc.)" You're welcome to die in ignorance if you want. But the rest of society is free to ostracize you. Businesses can deny you access. Schools can deny your kids entry. And through the political process, can restrict your interactions in other ways. Your "freedom" stops…

You shot some strawman here. You don't have a freedom or right to be in sterile environment when you are out in public space. The germs are out there, deal with it rationally and with respect to other people.

Private business owners can put whatever restrictions they want on their spaces. And parents can decide what rules they want for their school, that's why we have schoolboards.

I was just listening to NPR's Freakonomics discussion of the Cialdini's the science of persuasion, and in that book, he talks about people who will reactively rebel again anything, even if they know they are wrong and it is against their interests, purely because it limited my choice.

In other words, how dare you tell me I can't drink poison, I'll do it because you don't have the right to tell me what to do.

This childish attitude precisely describes your attitude in the previous posts where you admit to doing things even if scientifically wrong. This sums up to a T, the problem with reactionary conservativism. It isn't about doing what's right, what's ethical, what's scientifically correct, what's efficient, it's about "elites can't tell me what to do!" Hence you get stupid shit like people deliberately making the exhaust of their trucks put old huge clouds of black smoke, because it's a finger to the face of everyone else who says that exhaust pollution is bad.

The temper tantrum of the anti-maskers, the anti-vaxxers, is largely such a childish overreaction.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#264

Post by tziki »

borplk wrote: post #168
tziki wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can apply all your logic to any major conspiracy theory. Did we land on the moon? It shouldn't be so controversial if we actually did. You say 9/11 was an inside job? Pfft, drop the self-righteous attitude.

Again you have to ask yourself why are you having such a hard time convincing people to take a so-obviously-safe harmless, and life-saving drug? And if the only answer you arrive at is "well because those people are stupid .. misinformation ... disinformation ... and they need to be educated" you need to stop and re-evaluate yourself and leave just a tiny bit of room for the possibility that you may be wrong instead…

I think I've just seen too many ridiculous conspiracy theories gain widespread popularity to believe that a large chunk of the population is not easily mislead.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#265

Post by JamisonM »

betwixthewires wrote: post #260
JamisonM wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quite obviously purposely misleading people, no one is obliged to be so credulous.

Obviously? If it is so obvious then tell me how. Misleading people, maybe, I could be wrong. I don't think I am, but I could be. Purposely? Show me how you came to that conclusion. Also not a single one of you has answered my initial question, "selfish how?"

As I said, no one is required to be so credulous.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#266

Post by [deleted] »

dangrossman wrote: post #105
Negitivefrags wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people wouldn’t conflate not wanting to take this particular vaccine at this particular time with being “anti-vax”. I am vaccinated. I vaccinate my kids and have done so as recently as a few months ago. I believe in vaccines. But I’m not ready for this one yet. When it has gone through the same FDA approval process as would be used for any vaccine I will be first in line. I don’t see why people are so offended…

It did go through the same FDA approval process as any vaccine. Full scale clinical trials then FDA review of the results. Getting an EUA means it skipped the normal months-long wait for the FDA to review it, not that it wasn't fully tested. We also now have more safety data on these vaccines than most vaccines ever get, thanks to over 2 billion doses administered worldwide, starting over 6 months ago. There is no re…

[deleted]

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#267

Post by nomel »

mpyne wrote: post #211
nomel wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related, this link is immediately below this one, on my feed: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27463732 I think it's a little unfair to label everyone "anti-vaxx" who are weary of the emergency approved, no long term testing, first time ever, mRNA vaccines. For those people, encourage them to look into the more conventional Johnson and Johnson vaccine. Even then, I wouldn't consider them anti-vaxx until full FDA…

The COVID mRNA vaccines have been in testing for more than a calendar year (first studies began, shots-in-arms, in March 2020), and this is not the first mRNA vaccine (the first is for Zika, which is still in development because its study is still waiting to accumulate the data to show its effectiveness). At some point I can only treat people who still give these lame -- and untrue -- justifications for why they like…

> for more than a calendar year

> which is still in development

Correct. There have been no long term studies, no MRNA vaccines have been fully approved, and the COVID vaccine is the first MRNA vaccine to be given to the general population.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#268

Post by effie »

cromwellian wrote: post #263
effie wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shot some strawman here. You don't have a freedom or right to be in sterile environment when you are out in public space. The germs are out there, deal with it rationally and with respect to other people.

Private business owners can put whatever restrictions they want on their spaces. And parents can decide what rules they want for their school, that's why we have schoolboards. I was just listening to NPR's Freakonomics discussion of the Cialdini's the science of persuasion, and in that book, he talks about people who will reactively rebel again anything, even if they know they are wrong and it is against their intere…

> Private business owners can put whatever restrictions they want on their spaces.

Not "whatever restrictions". For example, you cannot announce "only white people". And similarly should be that you cannot announce "only vaccinated people". It is a very similar thing, rejecting group of people based on fear of interacting with them because they are different.

> In other words, how dare you tell me I can't drink poison, I'll do it because you don't have the right to tell me what to do.

And that should be the allowed and accepted thing to do. I don't want some institution to decide which substances are OK to drink and which are forbidden. In some cases, that poison may save your life. Whether a chemical is a medicine or poison often depends on details of the situation, for example health status, tolerance and dosage.

> It isn't about doing what's right, what's ethical, what's scientifically correct, what's efficient, it's about "elites can't tell me what to do!"

What's right and what is ethical and what's scientifically correct can be very different for different people. Some like you believe that is determined by authorities (medical, scientific, government) and some like me don't, we prefer to make our own minds.

Re: Linus Torvalds: Get vaccinated. Stop believing the anti-vax lies

#269

Post by effie »

cromwellian wrote: post #263
effie wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You shot some strawman here. You don't have a freedom or right to be in sterile environment when you are out in public space. The germs are out there, deal with it rationally and with respect to other people.

Private business owners can put whatever restrictions they want on their spaces. And parents can decide what rules they want for their school, that's why we have schoolboards. I was just listening to NPR's Freakonomics discussion of the Cialdini's the science of persuasion, and in that book, he talks about people who will reactively rebel again anything, even if they know they are wrong and it is against their intere…

Since you believe in science, this discussion (of very knowledgeable science-respecting and science-informed people) may interest you, it is about the increasing evidence of problems of the current gene therapy COVID vaccines and other strategies for handling the pandemic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_NNTVJzqtY

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