Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#871

Post by bluefirebrand » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:15 PM UTC

gowld wrote: post #404

teawrecks wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh I totally agree, the US education system doesn't put any emphasis on helping kids figure out what they want to do after school. If a kid asks "when am I ever going to use this?", it's a sign you need to back up and lay some more groundwork. I don't know why it was different for me, but looking back I think it was important.

The vast majority of employed people are not doing "what they wanted to do when they grow up", and quite many are doing jobs they didn't even know existed.

I wanted to be a Ninja Turtle for quite some time when I was growing up, so I really don't know how much emphasis we should be placing on "what do you want to be when you grow up" anyways.

In case anyone is wondering, I didn't become a Ninja Turtle.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#872

Post by ajkdhcb2 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:20 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #115

ajkdhcb2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is this socialist paradise that you speak of where you can have a home without working? There is nowhere like what you are saying. It is the exact opposite of what you are claiming. Affordability of essentials has become so much worse that many people can't afford to live a decent life with their own home even if they are working the jobs that they can actually acquire. These people aren't privileged because th…

> Where is this socialist paradise that you speak of where you can have a home without working? Finland, for example. "Home", of course means a simple flat in a housing block and there might be a waiting list, but housing every single one of its people regardless of employment has been something that the state has sought for a long time.

I live there and personally know people that are unwell but pushed to work because there are so many requirements, always going to doctors and filling out forms. You can't just say you don't want to work.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#873

Post by xwolfi » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

twh270 wrote: post #648

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a decade ago). They're well aware of how men are portrayed versus women. We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason f…

Yeah it's what I find wrong with the way we fix / correct social issues like this. I m a white male european who emigrated to an asian former colony, and while I never heard or supported racism, misogyny, colonisation, white supremacy, nazism and all these things, I'm often associated with them :D

It's fair I guess so I apologize for what I represent to all these people who had oppressed ancestors, but I'm not sure they're actually resolving much of what people who looked like me did to them: poverty, lack of empowerement, inability to operate in a modern world etc, they can spend their time making me acknowledge my associated responsibility but I wish they'd just let me help instead :D

I remember telling a "philipino" (culturally/parents born there) born in the country that I was an immigrant here, he could not even compute it. He felt HE was, while obviously he was born here and a full right citizen, while my associated identity made him believe I was a sort of powerful lord instead of the scraping by immigrant I am, who has mostly the right to shut up and be useful... in HIS country. It's just weird.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#874

Post by FooBarBizBazz » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

epicureanideal wrote: post #607

jdgoesmarching wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s a lot of validity to the social struggles of men in a lot of online discourse, but to say “society“ punishes us for not being women flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically. Buying into that victim complex is a distraction from your own self-development and healing.

> flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Earnings isn't necessarily the best measure of socioeconomic success. https://girlpowermarketing.com/statistics-purchasing-power-w... Women control or influence 85% of spending, for example. I would say the amount of goods and services you actually purchase and consume would be a better indicator of socioeconomic success, compared with earnin…

This explains a lot about advertising and media.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#875

Post by rdtwo » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

spideymans wrote: post #506

paulpauper wrote: post #382

I don't think it's a tragedy. The overly dramatic media and pundits get this all wrong in labeling it such. Young people are simply responding to incentives to live at home longer. Living expenses keep going up relative to inflation and wages, such as home prices, rent, insurance, etc. Living at home is a good way save money, even for the employed. Family formation is expensive and fraught with risks such as divorce…

More succinctly, why work when we have nothing to work for? Anecdotally, I just graduated from university and am gainfully employed. I'm really happy to be employed, yet I quickly realized that I have no idea what I want to do with all this money. I'm never going to be able to buy a house. I'm not particularly enthusiastic about having kids, and don't think I can afford children in the first place. I have no major li…

I felt the same way as you did, but eventually my wife decided we need a home and it turned out to be a good financial choice.

That being said you can buy a house right more at negative real interest rates. If your salary keeps up with inflation you will be making money on it

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#876

Post by ericmay » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:40 PM UTC

developer93 wrote: post #756

epicureanideal wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Earnings isn't necessarily the best measure of socioeconomic success. https://girlpowermarketing.com/statistics-purchasing-power-w... Women control or influence 85% of spending, for example. I would say the amount of goods and services you actually purchase and consume would be a better indicator of socioeconomic success, compared with earnin…

Assuming a traditional household here with a working dad and stay at home mum, if the woman is mostly responsible for childcare, that's also a huge load. Just because the mother here isn't bringing in money doesn't mean she isn't working. Personally I'd take the employment (and have).

Quality of work too. Like one person may be going to a soul-crushing office job while another is doing something undoubtedly meaningful and enjoyable, if not also stressful.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#877

Post by HDMI_Cable » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

graphtradr wrote: post #850

zaptheimpaler wrote: post #668

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moving discourse to social media and click bait has destroyed so much nuance in all discussions. Everything is black and white now, every issue is just a war between 2 sides and you're either "with us or against us".

Yes, this is group psychology. Only individuals can really be rational. Once individuals form a psychological group, individuality is lost, rationality is lost with it and everything is controlled by the emotions of the group. The group has no room for anything really but for the extreme emotional reactions of in-group/out-group psychology and you see this playing out in our society because of social media. There is…

I think its mostly groups on social media. Some groups can be rational, like a jury, or a committee full of intelligent people. But for them to be rational, there has to be the correct incentives and culture of discussion (i.e. no social media algorithms, or divisive politics).

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#878

Post by nobodyknowsyoda » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:49 PM UTC

lkrubner wrote: post #715

What should strong, stupid men do? Male participation in the economy peaked in the 1950s. It began to decline as the USA automated agriculture. Millions of years of evolution gave us some men who are very strong, but very stupid. There used to be an abundance of jobs for such men. Agriculture, in particular, provided endless jobs for such people. Some of these jobs paid surprisingly well. When I was very young, I spe…

> But again, what should we do with very strong, very stupid men? There used to be an abundance of jobs for them, some of which paid well. Nowadays there are no jobs for them.

Last summer I took a job in construction. Construction fits the bill of what you’re describing. There needs to be more construction in America

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#879

Post by xwolfi » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:53 PM UTC

buildingmateri wrote: post #710

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Especially a problem because for almost all men a career and supporting family (maybe the hardest thing to figure out in life) is non optional, whereas half the female friends I have from college have abandoned careers to saddle up to a breadwinner ... I mean I kind of want that option but men don't really have it. Does anyone ever really discuss this social reality that makes it different for men v women in real wor…

Yeah, I proposed the idea to my wife and she called me a lazy loser if I do that. It's interesting how I somewhat agree, but would never call her that if she floated the idea to stop working to raise our daughter.

And she's paid more than me, and has a PhD. She still consider me a breadwinner who must win and herself a disempowered victim who need support :D

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#880

Post by Noos » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

JoeyBananas wrote: post #504

paulpauper wrote: post #382

I don't think it's a tragedy. The overly dramatic media and pundits get this all wrong in labeling it such. Young people are simply responding to incentives to live at home longer. Living expenses keep going up relative to inflation and wages, such as home prices, rent, insurance, etc. Living at home is a good way save money, even for the employed. Family formation is expensive and fraught with risks such as divorce…

I completely reject everything that you are saying. A grown man (or woman) who is dependent on their parents at that level has very serious problems because they are the equivalents of obese domestic dogs in a world full of wolves. Left to their own devices, they would have nothing. A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. They take it for granted that other…

Not everyone can do "something." A lot of jobs aren't meaningful or even necessary, and given the increased tendency to require 4 year degrees on top of internships, connections, and more for many jobs makes it harder to obtain them.

Also, a lot of jobs that would employee these men are disappearing. Retail in particular is the employer of last resort, but physical shops are slowly dwindling in numbers. People are a lot more aware of how bad the military is to be in, too; there is much less glamour around it culturally.