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Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

economist.com

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Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#511

Post by dukeyukey »

reader_mode wrote: post #150
thijsc wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting back: Your comment is utter nonsense. There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Reliable and cheap health care is a huge boon for small entrepreneurs. There’s little regulation to deal with as a software company. Child care and great schools are cheap or free. Yes firing people is much harder, that is a different context compared to the US you have to properly plan for. Which we do over…

> There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Is there really ? I see attempts at copying the US tech scene, but a lot of it seems structured to suck money out of government funds and programs. I see very little private investment. Just recently I talked to a local VC, in a casual chat about how they started their fund I found out they pulled money out of a EU fund, they had to put up like 25% of t…

Silicon Valley is top, we all know that. But in terms of startup funding, after the SFBA and Beijing comes London. In terms of startup-friendliness, London typically beats every US hub except the SFBA, and occasionally ties with NYC.

I'll give you places like Stockholm and Amsterdam don't quite hit those heights, but still have healthy ecosystems going for them. But it's difficult to describe the 'EU' way of doing things because the EU is not a federal government; each country is a separate nation, with far more differentiating them than US states

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#512

Post by chrisseaton »

ativzzz wrote: post #204
nxc18 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered this. I work at an American company with many European employees and it is just really hard to see a complete lack of ambition/competitiveness. At some point being on vacation so much must hurt, I know projects are delayed when folks just can’t be expected to be there and will randomly disappear for 4+ weeks at a time. But that really doesn’t explain the extreme cultural conservatism towards effort/am…

A very US mindset. I live in the US and I completely disagree with your outlook on life. Great food with friends, or a vacation with family provides so much more satisfaction to me than anything a job could provide. The only thing a job provides that those things can't is money. I'm not so egotistical to think that I'm special and not easily replaceable. I'm no Steve Jobs or Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein. I'm just…

> Great food with friends, or a vacation with family provides so much more satisfaction to me than anything a job could provide.

But a better job, with more money, more time off, more relaxed conditions, lets you get more of these things you say you want.

Also look at the current pandemic. Due to their work ethic and research power the US has been able to vaccinate their people so they can enjoy life again while much of the EU is still in lockdown.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#513

Post by j_wtf_all_taken »

microtonal wrote: post #463
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German and Austrian broadband is equally worse.

Because of a lack of competition, it’s the same issue as the US, but at a smaller scale (at least in most areas you can subscribe to multiple ISPs). E.g. in The Netherlands you can subscribe to a large number of ISPs. In the largest part of the country either through *DSL or cable. Increasingly also fiber. This is because the government regulated internet access very early on. When the state telephone company was pri…

Its interesting that you get downvoted just for saying that we should have government regulation that leads to working markets with a healthy competition making things better for people.

> I thing regulated capitalism is one of the strengths of Europe. It may not always result in the best outcome for shareholders, but it’s definitely great for the general population.

yeaaaah :)

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#514

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #494
nicoburns wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are plenty of well paid tech jobs in Europe. The ridiculous levels of pay you can get in the US are really creating more inequality rather than addressing it.

Yeah but the people commenting here are probably the ones that earn that tech money, not the person working in the service sector for a couple of $ an hour.

Well the topic of this thread was corporate and tech related so what do you expect?

You can't always bring the lifestyle of minimum wage employees into every single discussion just as an joker card to argue that Europe is better than the US.

Yes, minimum wage immigrants have it better in Europe and skilled immigrants have better opportunities in the US.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#515

Post by marvin »

ddalex wrote: post #249
laurent92 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the end, one may talk about all the startups (when the BPI pumps billions into it, I sure hope there are some startups and medium companies), but EU has proven unable to build an Apple . It would be dismantled here, and CEO beaten up before reaching any interesting level. DailyMotion (French) was as big as Youtube. Many others like this. We always end up #2, and the Silicon Valley still decides what is ok to say o…

> EU has proven unable to build an Apple and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes

The stock market thinks it's building one right now, however.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#516

Post by oytis »

nicoburns wrote: post #490
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US creating top paying tech jobs for the working class and not taxing them to death so they can grow into a flourishing middles class is also helping people. >large part of the US economy that consists of hurting people Source? If you're talking about the defense sector then you should also know that the UK and France were several years in a row number 2 and 3 worldwide in arms sales, including to the Saudi regime.

There are plenty of well paid tech jobs in Europe. The ridiculous levels of pay you can get in the US are really creating more inequality rather than addressing it.

> There are plenty of well paid tech jobs in Europe.

The point was about letting working class people grow into middle class, i.e. accumulate some wealth by working at these jobs. It's much more difficult to do in Europe than in the US. First the tax system that is progressive on income, but not on net worth, that makes it increasingly hard to get richer by having good income. Second property prices are high and growing faster than income normally does. And finally as you've noticed these jobs are just not as well paid as in the US - basically it's the same grade as other office jobs (except managers and lawyers, these are paid much better)

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#517

Post by chrisseaton »

yoz-y wrote: post #222
chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> knowing you will get support if you lose your job, get cared for if you get sick and when you get old, have an education that is not financially elitist, make enough to live -modestly- and feed your family on a single job But North American companies also outperform on this. My health insurance is better than a local company. My sick coverage is better than a local company. My educational opportunities are better t…

Beware of the survivorship bias. North American companies operating in the EU are those that are the most successful even in US. You would have a better everything working there compared to elsewhere disregarding of the locality. The advantage is really in working for a rich company.

> The advantage is really in working for a rich company.

Which you don’t get in Europe… which was the point.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#518

Post by dukeyukey »

reader_mode wrote: post #314
zingar wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO. At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.

I don't get this part - 2 weeks PTO - OK - tech companies are flexible in looking for good talent - if you're getting paid 2x you can work 6months a year to break even. Now taking off 6 months unpaid isn't realistic - but a month off isn't that unusual. And the healthcare part what are you even talking about - what employer doesn't provide healthcare in tech ? You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NH…

> You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS

What would an NHS-style plan cost in the US? Like, I'd be happy in a shared hospital room and having lower priority for non-emergency care, but in exchange having 0 co-pay, 0 deductible, 100% coverage for everything (including long-term care), 0 ambulance fees and a maximum prescription cost per item of $12/month?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#519

Post by gjhh244 »

oytis wrote: post #495
j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #421

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The more-even distribution thus comes at the expense of quality of life. What are you talking about? We have fairer elections, better infrastructure, more social security, everyone's got health insurance, we're not getting shot in school, and also we're not on the way to be ruled by a fascist so ... how exactly are you measuring the quality of life?

Denmark legally discriminates agwinst "non-western" immigrants and officially aims at not taking any refugees at all. France is ruled by a rather right-wing government and has a chance to have a far-right one next. Germany hasn't seen a left-wing government for 16 years, will likely not see it for 4 more years (if ever). The rest can be easily compromised by economic stagnation, to have good social security you need…

Mass migration from developing world is mostly a burden to European welfare systems these days, since a lot of it is humanitarian and most humanitarian migrants lack skills to do well in our job markets.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#520

Post by reader_mode »

dukeyukey wrote: post #511
reader_mode wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is a thriving tech scene in Europe and we do quite well! Is there really ? I see attempts at copying the US tech scene, but a lot of it seems structured to suck money out of government funds and programs. I see very little private investment. Just recently I talked to a local VC, in a casual chat about how they started their fund I found out they pulled money out of a EU fund, they had to put up like 25% of t…

Silicon Valley is top, we all know that. But in terms of startup funding, after the SFBA and Beijing comes London. In terms of startup-friendliness, London typically beats every US hub except the SFBA, and occasionally ties with NYC. I'll give you places like Stockholm and Amsterdam don't quite hit those heights, but still have healthy ecosystems going for them. But it's difficult to describe the 'EU' way of doing th…

London is not EU, even when they were a member they were a separate story.
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