Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#341

Post by TMWNN » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:51 AM UTC

fy20 wrote: post #126

TMWNN wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>On the other hand, people here don't tend to go bankrupt and lose their house, healthcare (ironically) and life (from a social aspect) in general when they don't have a perfect health Only 4% of US bankruptcies are because of medical bills https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2018/0... >. A tipoff that [insert large percentage here] of bankruptcies aren't actually because of medical costs is that on…

> The biggest cause of bankruptcies is lack of income, which health insurance doesn't affect. Maybe that 4% is correct, but for sure how to deal with paying for medical care is a big worry for many people in the US. There was a post a few days ago (or comments at least) discussing how many people working low wage jobs in the US are working 29 hours or fewer specifically so their employer doesn't need to provide healt…

>There was a post a few days ago (or comments at least) discussing how many people working low wage jobs in the US are working 29 hours or fewer specifically so their employer doesn't need to provide health insurance. Are there social programs that cover those people, or do they just not go to the doctor when sick?

Details vary by state, but generally Medicaid, a public insurance program, kicks in for those below a certain income level.

Contrary to what Reddit would have you believe, 91% of Americans have medical insurance (https://www.census.gov/library/publications/2020/demo/p60-27...>), whether through their employers, or government programs like Medicare/Medicaid. That's compared to 95-97% in other developed countries because there are always some people who fall through cracks, like (say) a Canadian who doesn't get a new provincial health care card after moving, or a German who neglects to buy into a new sickness fund after changing careers.

Two thirds of Americans have private medical insurance. One third have public insurance of some type, including 20% from the aforementioned Medicaid.

Some large chunk of the 4-6% differential in the US versus other countries is illegal aliens who don't qualify for public insurance and are working cash jobs that don't provide private insurance. The only such national systems with actual 100% (or as close to it as possible) coverage is something like the UK NHS, which does not have a requirement to show a membership card (because, well, there isn't one) to receive treatment.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#342

Post by ddalex » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:52 AM UTC

tmpz22 wrote: post #258

ddalex wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU has proven unable to build an Apple and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes

> and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes And yet neither the US or EU could affordably fix a Mercedes

> > and US has proven unable to build a Mercedes

> And yet neither the US or EU could affordably fix a Mercedes

Or an Apple product :))

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#343

Post by TheOtherHobbes » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:52 AM UTC

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

I've looked into this, and moving to the US has absolutely zero appeal.

The US corporate tax code is incomprehensible, healthcare is an expensive and high-risk potentially deadly nightmare, small businesses in tech are permanently at risk from litigation by patent trolls, scam artists, and other white collar thuggery, if you're reliant on a big corporate provider for payments or market access or promotion - and you usually are - they can shut you down without notice on a whim.

But - best of all - I don't need to worry about being murdered by some rando on my way to work.

Good luck being allowed to move to the US unless you're already a high net worth individual or have a high public profile. An EB-x series visa isn't going to get you far unless you're already a household name or you have an unusually in-demand skill. Most startups don't count.

While you can game the system in various ways, or at least try to, the reality is that your immigration status is likely to be precarious for a good long time.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#344

Post by krakatau1 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:53 AM UTC

sveme wrote: post #298

kortilla wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because on average all of the top talent goes to the US companies that pay an order of magnitude more than the locals (FAANG).

Hyperbole much? I earn around 100k€ in Munich. You‘re saying the local google or apple would pay me a million per year? Wow.

Well not million but 500-600k sure.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#345

Post by knuthsat » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:54 AM UTC

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

I found that opening a company in one of the most bureaucratic countries in EU (Austria) was very easy. I did everything online, from my personal immigration to founding an LLC. The only in person meeting was for establishing a permanent residence.

Yes, the taxes are high, social security is high, but being a programmer makes things much simpler as we are the high earners in this age.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#346

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:55 AM UTC

analog31 wrote: post #37

okareaman wrote: post #9

The opening paragraph: In 1984 a besuited 20-something American executive on a visit to France offered Europeans a few tips for corporate success. Entrepreneurs needed to be given a second chance if they failed and government bureaucrats made for lousy investors, he told a television interviewer. His advice was sage. But European companies ruled the global corporate roost alongside those of America and, occasionally,…

Yet they moved their taxable entity to Ireland, if I understand things correctly. I'm not sure what it means to say that they're an "American" company. And what do we actually gain from having companies nominally located in the US?

> they moved their taxable entity to Ireland

Apple’s Double Irish With a Dutch Sandwich avoids taxes on non-U.S. profits [1]. U.S. profits are still taxed domestically.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#347

Post by thow-01187 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:57 AM UTC

sdoering wrote: post #299

tchvil wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having started 3 companies in Belgium, and one in Spain. My experience differs. Opening an branch in the US was a pain in comparison. I love our continent, for its project, its diversity, and trying to find the right balance between work and social welfare. Life can be more than GDP or market cap. I stopped my The Economist subscription long time ago, per their constant anti-European bashing.

Also the measure of market cap could be debated. One could question if it is the right measurement and if market cap is a good approximate of economical prosperity. Or of a fair share of this prosperity being distributed to society. There are many ways to measure and argue what the author is trying to convey. They choose one that fit their argument. As a counter point one could look at the writings of authors like Va…

There's a case to be made that Europe is playing the smart game here.

At this point, US has cumulatively burned a few trillions in funding for their software corporations. Europe, meanwhile, gets the fruits of it, mostly for free (1). Case in point - I personally spent more money last month on a fish tank cleaner than to all Silicon Valley corporations combined, and even that's an aberration in my social circle - most of the others do not wire a single cent there.

Yes, the overall money flow in IT is from EU to US, but expressed as ROI, it's unlikely to be very impressive.

(1) - apart from Microsoft. Imho they're the true crown jewel of the US software sector. Most of the world's economy runs on Microsoft Office in one way or another

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#348

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:57 AM UTC

mongol wrote: post #236

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're doing well in America pretty much every system is better for you than the European counterpart. On the other hand if you're doing poorly well you can fall very far in the US system. Of the American's on Hacker News almost all of them are in the "doing well" category so the perspective is all off.

Yes buy simplified, that is like saying, if you are doing well you are doing well, and if you are doing poorly, you are doing poorly. I think it makese sense to consider, what is your disaster scenario? What would it take to go from doing well, to not do well? For example, a crippling accident that handicaps you so you can no longer make a living doing the thing you are specialized in today. How would you fare then?…

[deleted]

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#349

Post by JumpCrisscross » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #222

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> knowing you will get support if you lose your job, get cared for if you get sick and when you get old, have an education that is not financially elitist, make enough to live -modestly- and feed your family on a single job But North American companies also outperform on this. My health insurance is better than a local company. My sick coverage is better than a local company. My educational opportunities are better t…

Beware of the survivorship bias. North American companies operating in the EU are those that are the most successful even in US. You would have a better everything working there compared to elsewhere disregarding of the locality. The advantage is really in working for a rich company.

> advantage is really in working for a rich company

Of which America has more. For structural reasons. Per the article.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#350

Post by rsj_hn » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

andruby wrote: post #257

rsj_hn wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because societies that promote innovation have higher quality of life and bless the entire world with technological advancement, while their own population benefits from lower prices, more goods, productivity growth, more jobs, more opportunity, and more fairness. It's strange how quick people are to condemn monopolies and yet in the same breath insist that starting businesses is not a social good. Of course it's a s…

> societies that promote innovation have higher quality of life Does the US have a higher quality of life than Germany, France or the Netherlands? I agree that innovation is important and societies should promote it, but -imho- not at the cost of consumer & employee protection.

Depends on the demographics. Algerians in France or Turks in Germany don't have such a great quality of life, but neither do El Salvadorans in the US. The U.S. is 60% Europe, 25% Latin America, 10% Africa, 5% Asia, and has pretty good quality of life for these demographics. As demographics in Europe change, the EU will see more of the issues it likes to criticize the US for, but the demographic-adjusted quality of life in the U.S. is pretty good.