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Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

economist.com

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Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#311

Post by potamic »

laurent92 wrote: post #165
ddalex wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand the people in EU are happier, have better social protection, better benefits, better health systems, better consumer protection, better application of rules and laws, they make for more productive employees. Do the shareholders get as rich as fast as in the hyperactive US economy? Not, but the society functions better. I very much prefer the EU.

In the end, one may talk about all the startups (when the BPI pumps billions into it, I sure hope there are some startups and medium companies), but EU has proven unable to build an Apple . It would be dismantled here, and CEO beaten up before reaching any interesting level. DailyMotion (French) was as big as Youtube. Many others like this. We always end up #2, and the Silicon Valley still decides what is ok to say o…

There have been companies like Nokia, SAP, Spotify, ARM, ASML all showing it's not impossible to be #1. This is not even considering the auto sector where Europe dominates by a huge margin. I don't think there is something inherently lacking about Europe to enable business growth. The US obviously enjoys a first mover advantage in the software industry and as a result continues to receive much more VC funding than anyone else.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#312

Post by raverbashing »

onion2k wrote: post #226
apatters wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't you'll end up with fewer businesses, which will concentrate wealth, which has documented negative effects on society.

You'll end up with fewer businesses, but the ones that won't get started are the ones people aren't really willing to put effort in to starting. You'll only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss. If someone has an idea, and a real drive to start, then they can start pretty much anywhere, even if it isn't super simple to register a company. So, really, m…

> only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss

Sounds like you could easily justify soviet bureaucracy with that logic.

> It's also worth pointing out that if someone is falling at the hurdle of just registering and starting a company then the chance of success is very low

You're not wrong about this specifically. But why would I open in a difficult country if I can open in an easy country?

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#313

Post by sudosysgen »

refurb wrote: post #260
bennybob wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the whole western world has been fed a pile of anti American garbage for a generation. My wife actually said she wouldn't live there because she was afraid of getting shot. Ridiculous. Meanwhile everyone in the non western world wants to get to the USA. I'm in the UK and I'm now glad we have left the EU. The vaccine debacle has maybe shown us what the eu actually is: a massive bureaucracy where no one takes a…

As someone who isn’t an American but has lived/worked in half a dozen countries, yes, the US is pretty great. Is it perfect? No. But claims of it being a “living hell hole” are just internet tough talk.

As someone in a similar situation, the US is extremely variable. It can be great or it can really suck. If your standard for greatness is that there are parts of it that are great then most countried in the world are great.

What is more interesting is the bottom quintile and the worst it can get. Because you'll find developped cities and rich neighborhoods with high safety and good healthcare in a lot of places. How bad it's likely to get and how much you have to worry as the average person is the better metric.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#314

Post by reader_mode »

zingar wrote: post #276
bennybob wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO. At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.

I don't get this part - 2 weeks PTO - OK - tech companies are flexible in looking for good talent - if you're getting paid 2x you can work 6months a year to break even. Now taking off 6 months unpaid isn't realistic - but a month off isn't that unusual.

And the healthcare part what are you even talking about - what employer doesn't provide healthcare in tech ? You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS (eg. decent dental)

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#316

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

kortilla wrote: post #277
Barrin92 wrote: post #99

As usual the article is almost exclusively concerned with market capitalization as an indicator of economic success. Countries like Germany are dominated by small and middle-class, family owned business. 'Big corporate' is indeed more successful in the US or China but it's just one model to manage an economy and I don't think it's that great. One of the most important points is also buried at the end of the article >…

“No big companies” is a fine policy for things that don’t require a lot of money to innovate on. A small business will never be capable of producing anything like the iPhone for example. Pushing the envelope on tech is very expensive and this is where Europe’s current model doesn’t work. If it’s just companies reselling existing things or incremental tech (e.g. grocers, telecoms, utilities, airlines, etc), then small…

Europe had iPhone precursors before iPhones were a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Communicator

And don't forget ARM was initially a UK/EU design. Arduino and Pi still are.

Also not doing so badly with fintech and entertainment.

https://www.information-age.com/value-of-european-tech-compa...

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#317

Post by pjc50 »

onion2k wrote: post #226
apatters wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if you don't you'll end up with fewer businesses, which will concentrate wealth, which has documented negative effects on society.

You'll end up with fewer businesses, but the ones that won't get started are the ones people aren't really willing to put effort in to starting. You'll only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss. If someone has an idea, and a real drive to start, then they can start pretty much anywhere, even if it isn't super simple to register a company. So, really, m…

Every cost causes a difference at the margin. Businesses are fragile when small. And most of these costs are just economic dead weight, ridiculous paper proof of work schemes where all you're really proving is that you've wasted a certain amount of time and money.

If I were to identify one big flaw, it would be that EU governments don't recognize that small businesses can't do regulatory compliance as much, so they should be exempted. Or you get no small business formation that can turn into large businesses.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#318

Post by thow-01187 »

yoz-y wrote: post #241
onion2k wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll end up with fewer businesses, but the ones that won't get started are the ones people aren't really willing to put effort in to starting. You'll only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss. If someone has an idea, and a real drive to start, then they can start pretty much anywhere, even if it isn't super simple to register a company. So, really, m…

The major problem in EU is not really starting the companies. Most countries have ways to incorporate by filing a form and sending an email or two. The problem though is financing, French investors for example are really stingy and you won’t get somebody to just throw a few millions at you to see if you succeed. France has decided to build the “French Silicon Valley” multiple times by grouping schools and companies t…

> French investors for example are really stingy and you won’t get somebody to just throw a few millions at you to see if you succeed

Isn't that...normal? Where did the attitude come from - that startups are somehow entitled to funding worth of several lifetime median incomes, for their half-baked business ideas that are unlikely to ever turn profit? That if the country doesn't shower the founders with angel investor money just for showing up, they are somehow unreasonably risk-averse and stingy.

As an example - Docker, arguably the most influential software of the past decade, was developed in France. HN has derided French investors for not investing in it, leading to the company relocation to US. Afaik, Docker is still burning money, with no end in sight, and will continue to do so indefinitely unless a buyout at ridiculous valuation happens. Looks like...the stingy French investors were right after all...

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#319

Post by satellite2 »

This article is truly bizarre.

The main point it makes is that the top 500 US companies grew faster than the top 500 European ones in the last decade or so.

But then it quickly mention, without any further analysis, that both their GDP actually grew at a similar pace. So the entire EU economy grew at the same speed than the US one but not its 500 bigger companies. So all else being equals it means that the smaller US companies grew more slowly and that this article is simply mesuring increasing corporate inequalities (if there is such a thing).

It then goes on to say, without much evidence, that this is actually good as economies of scale, supposedly more investment in R&D and increasing concentration should imply more innovation.

If this article actually wants to discuss innovation, why don't it use recognised tools to do so? If you take the global innovation index, the number of Nobel price per 100'000 habitants, the number of registered patents per year or simply the size of the economy, all point to a very healthy European continent.

I will even go further and say that the US should monitor much more closely increasing concentration as typically the ISPs or the energy distribution sectors show that concentration can be good for the shareholders but devastating for the consumer.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#320

Post by [deleted] »

okareaman wrote: post #9

The opening paragraph: In 1984 a besuited 20-something American executive on a visit to France offered Europeans a few tips for corporate success. Entrepreneurs needed to be given a second chance if they failed and government bureaucrats made for lousy investors, he told a television interviewer. His advice was sage. But European companies ruled the global corporate roost alongside those of America and, occasionally,…

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