Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing? • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#291

Post by specialkfan » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:12 AM UTC

ativzzz wrote: post #204

nxc18 wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have wondered this. I work at an American company with many European employees and it is just really hard to see a complete lack of ambition/competitiveness. At some point being on vacation so much must hurt, I know projects are delayed when folks just can’t be expected to be there and will randomly disappear for 4+ weeks at a time. But that really doesn’t explain the extreme cultural conservatism towards effort/am…

A very US mindset. I live in the US and I completely disagree with your outlook on life. Great food with friends, or a vacation with family provides so much more satisfaction to me than anything a job could provide. The only thing a job provides that those things can't is money. I'm not so egotistical to think that I'm special and not easily replaceable. I'm no Steve Jobs or Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein. I'm just…

Yep - it's this mindset that allows the US to be far more productive with arguably maybe a "lower" quality of life if you're benchmarking it against things like vacation time.

It's all about trade-offs at the end of the day and what you choose to value.

What folks in the US value are clearly different and therefore result in different priorities.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#292

Post by developer93 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:13 AM UTC

apatters wrote: post #180

onion2k wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why should society optimize for how easy it is to start a business?

Because if you don't you'll end up with fewer businesses, which will concentrate wealth, which has documented negative effects on society.

Most millionaires aren't from/based in the US? I feel like European red tape mediates the concentration of wealth somewhat compared to the US

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#293

Post by eecc » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:13 AM UTC

wpasc wrote: post #109

Barrin92 wrote: post #99

As usual the article is almost exclusively concerned with market capitalization as an indicator of economic success. Countries like Germany are dominated by small and middle-class, family owned business. 'Big corporate' is indeed more successful in the US or China but it's just one model to manage an economy and I don't think it's that great. One of the most important points is also buried at the end of the article >…

In defense of the article (not agreeing nor disagreeing), the article then includes reasons why it is concerned with market capitalization: >But if it continues, the waning of Europe’s business will bring consequences. Big firms invest in innovation, which boosts economic growth. Left to regulate only foreign groups, Europe’s ability to shape global business norms—on privacy, say, or the uses of artificial intelligen…

OTOH megacorps rarely "innovate" from within, they're too bureaucratic and management stakes are too high for fast risk-taking. What they usually do is to buy out smaller entities that have somewhat proven the concept and pretend they're geniuses for having found a truffle.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#294

Post by specialkfan » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:15 AM UTC

everyone wrote: post #66

Wow a place with high quality of life, education, equality, human rights, individual empowerment etc. is also a bad environment for giant terrible corporations. Who'da thunk it.

If you're White maybe. I'm Asian and the incessant, non-stop casual racism in Europe is just next level.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#295

Post by tluyben2 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:16 AM UTC

yoz-y wrote: post #241

onion2k wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll end up with fewer businesses, but the ones that won't get started are the ones people aren't really willing to put effort in to starting. You'll only really lose the easy "fill in a form and off you go" businesses. I don't imagine that's much of a loss. If someone has an idea, and a real drive to start, then they can start pretty much anywhere, even if it isn't super simple to register a company. So, really, m…

The major problem in EU is not really starting the companies. Most countries have ways to incorporate by filing a form and sending an email or two. The problem though is financing, French investors for example are really stingy and you won’t get somebody to just throw a few millions at you to see if you succeed. France has decided to build the “French Silicon Valley” multiple times by grouping schools and companies t…

This is the core: enough smart folk, enough ideas etc but people here sit on their money. EU investors invest in sure things and sure things are just not FAANGS when they start out. The appetite for risk is close to 0. You can see this when getting into EU incubators who try to mimic HN: they are absolutely waiting for that thing to happen where they are sure they will have ROI at which moment you can just walk to a bank or to a much better investor. This slows things down but mostly kills them entirely.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#296

Post by berkes » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:16 AM UTC

okareaman wrote: post #46

analog31 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet they moved their taxable entity to Ireland, if I understand things correctly. I'm not sure what it means to say that they're an "American" company. And what do we actually gain from having companies nominally located in the US?

With the Apple mothership, Google, Facebook and Twitter headquarters just a few miles from my house, it's hard not to feel hometown pride and really, why should I? I'm aware of their problems but I have normal human emotions. Yet they moved their taxable entity to Mars, if I understand things correctly. I'm not sure what it means to say that they're an "Earth" company. And what do we actually gain from having compani…

Not trying to put you down, but isn't it weird to feel pride for something you contributed nothing to?

Maybe you are very old, and built the infrastructure those successful companies now used, in which case I'm wrong and some pride is warranted.

I also cannot understand nationalism for the same reason. Other than a marketing scam or massive delusion, that is.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#297

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:17 AM UTC

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #88

crossroadsguy wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the low work ethic > glory .. glory.. So you were missing "glory to overwork people to death" and things like "glory to force them to work on weekends, late nights and make them feel guilty and insecure about their jobs"? And things like "glory to people going bankrupt in hospitals", right?

The first large scale study on overwork deaths says US has less deaths than many countries in Europe. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016041202... https://www.npr.org/2021/05/17/997462169/thousands-of-people... In the U.S., less than 5% of the population is exposed to long work hours, according to a map the WHO published with the study. That proportion is similar to Brazil and Canada — and much low…

[deleted]

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#298

Post by sveme » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:17 AM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #259

oblio wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? The EU has a higher population than the US and it has many top notch universities. Europe tends to lose many of its tech talents to the US, but if you pay comparable salaries you'll keep them.

Because on average all of the top talent goes to the US companies that pay an order of magnitude more than the locals (FAANG).

Hyperbole much? I earn around 100k€ in Munich. You‘re saying the local google or apple would pay me a million per year? Wow.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#299

Post by sdoering » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

tchvil wrote: post #183

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

Having started 3 companies in Belgium, and one in Spain. My experience differs. Opening an branch in the US was a pain in comparison. I love our continent, for its project, its diversity, and trying to find the right balance between work and social welfare. Life can be more than GDP or market cap. I stopped my The Economist subscription long time ago, per their constant anti-European bashing.

Also the measure of market cap could be debated. One could question if it is the right measurement and if market cap is a good approximate of economical prosperity. Or of a fair share of this prosperity being distributed to society.

There are many ways to measure and argue what the author is trying to convey. They choose one that fit their argument.

As a counter point one could look at the writings of authors like Varoufakis for example and see a different world view.

Because imho the article is based on the authors world view. With cherry picked metrics and stats to support.

It isn't empirical but using data to appear as such.

There is much to critique in Europe. But the article sadly fails to tackle the interesting things.

It just opens up the field for an argumentative pissing match EU vs. US (pardon my French).

ps: I also started a company. It was as easy as filling out a form. Even taxes are doable on my own. So nothing too much of a hurdle there.

Re: Europe is now a corporate also-ran. Can it recover its footing?

#300

Post by microtonal » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 7:18 AM UTC

throwaway184747 wrote: post #181

238475235243 wrote: post #43

I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). Starting is hard enough without the general negative attitudes, the government insanities, the insane taxes, the low work ethic, the 8 weeks of vacation every month (I exaggerate, slightly). And I was in one of the two best EU countries, God only knows how bad it is in Spain or Italy or…

> I've lived in a few different parts of the EU, and couldn't imagine a worse idea than starting a company there (which I did, once). I moved here from the US to start a company, and for anyone reading, listen to the above advice. (I'm not a US citizen, so non-trivial to do a startup).

Since we are piling up anecdotal evidence. I am in the NL and starting a company took, I don’t know, 30 minutes of my time? Filling in a form on a website and a 10 minute appointment at the Chamber of Commerce.

Filing taxes is really straightforward. E.g., for VAT , the administration program that we use spits out quarterly numbers, a submit them through the tax office’s website.

Having started a business twice, both times I was surprised how easy and straightforward it is.

I have to add that the overhead of starting a company probably varies a lot between countries. We once considered opening a company in Germany and it seemed like a lot of paperwork. The problem was not the language barrier — my wife is a native speaker.