Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home • Hacker News Board

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#771

Post by exporectomy » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:27 AM UTC

fb13 wrote: post #647

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically The extreme elements of 3rd wave feminism has influcenced society in ways that unfairly and negatively impact boys. Specifically the concept of "toxic masculinity". Toxic people are toxic. Toxic behaviors are toxic. Toxic people should be shamed and toxic behaviors should be discouraged. Boys should not be shamed for being masculine,…

I've never encountered "toxic masculinity" in my entire life. Conservatives will be conservatives, aka creating a straw man so their base can feel just and continue in their camaraderie-through-bullying strategy. Like the abolishment of "critical race theory" which was taught exactly zero places in the US before the calling for it's ban.

I've encountered a lot of it before it had that name. It appears as bullying, talking over people, arrogance, aggression, threats of violence, violence, condescension, etc. Generally, efforts gain dominance over others in ways that harm them rather than being genuinely better at dominating constructively.

I think it's fine to call it toxic masculinity as long as people don't get it confused with healthy masculinity (not the same as femininity) or forget that toxic femininity exists or assume all men have toxic masculinity, or all the other misunderstandings that come with simplistic judgements of popular issues.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Post by throoooway » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:29 AM UTC

soucy wrote: post #559

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Bullshit. There are problems but it's not because of some "war on masculinity". The real issues are economic.

The education system has turned into the equivalent of those kindergarten karate classes where if you show up and do the fake moves and pay the money; they give you an ever increasing number of belts (degrees).

For whatever reason, women will go into debt or be allowed to go into debt to get useless degrees and there is no countervailing force to say: “uh marine biology is cool but…$500,000?”

This has lead to a situation where women have gotten 13 million more colleges degrees than men over the last few decades.

Meanwhile I think a lot of men go: “eh; yeah no.”

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Post by throwaway306744 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

bena wrote: post #60

kogepathic wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> another friend of mine basically refuses to date anymore because he thinks the sort of culture of Tinder dating is a waste of time that favors women disproportionately. My female friends (I'm male) with online dating profiles have shown me their matches and conversations, and it's bleak. They all mostly have an average profile and still receive thousands of likes/hearts/swipes and messages, but the mean amount of e…

Bumble has its own issues. It turns out "making the first move" is anxiety inducing in everyone. What women have done on Bumble is to basically treat the "first move" as an "invitation to treat", a second shot at selecting a guy. Most of those "first moves" are exactly what they say they don't want from guys: simple "Hey"s and "Hello"s. And then they say in their profile that once they say "Hey", you're supposed to r…

> Women, in general, don't really have to try to get solicitations.

Women put in high effort up front and lower effort per solicitation. Men put in lower effort up front and more effort per solicitation. Women's approach scales better, though they also bear the safety risks.

> those that feel the system is tilted against them in general don't understand that it's just them

Absolutely. Imagine if dating apps showed users their rating!

> At Tinder headquarters, I ask them if the data they’re about to show me will scar my ego. The beauty of Tinder, after all, is that rejection has been removed entirely from the process. Now, in an instant, I’d learn exactly how I ranked on Tinder. Then Solli-Nowlan revealed my score. “It’s 946,” he said. What does that mean? “It’s on the upper end of average.” It’s a vague number to process, but I knew I didn’t like hearing it. Something about “upper end of average” didn’t exactly do wonders for my ego. https://www.fastcompany.com/3054871/whats-your-tinder-score-...

On the other hand, showing your rating could be good IF coupled with actionable ways to improve it. Credit Karma but for Tinder anyone?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Post by wwweston » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

strken wrote: post #614

deadite wrote: post #532

>The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. Men are socially adept in their society and a society of their peers. Just not in this one which seeks to break them down and punishes them for not being women.

This is a bit too reductive. Men have a wider and flatter curve of outcomes than women. The ones who are doing really well are winning the Fields Medal and becoming C-suite executives; the ones who are struggling drop out of higher education, move back in with their parents, or get sent to jail. A lot of the gender wars happen because what's true for Jeff Bezos is not true for the guy who spraypainted "Let Them Eat F…

This is one of the most interesting insights into gender divides, and years ago I think I recall seeing a link here on HN to an essay by someone who tied this insight into dynamics down to a cellular (ie sperm have a wider and flatter curve than eggs) and genetic level (men seem to have a higher incidence of both genetic defects and beneficial mutations).

I can't seem to find it again (much less speak to its accuracy). Does anyone have an idea what this might be?

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#775

Post by developer93 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

twh270 wrote: post #648

flippinburgers wrote: post #511

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a decade ago). They're well aware of how men are portrayed versus women. We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason f…

Well, decades ago, men did run the world, to all intents and purposes. They're still in most positions of power (politics ceos etc), most things are designed by men, etc. This doesn't mean that it's the fault of every single man, any more than as a Brit who benefits from a legacy of empire that I'm personally responsible for whatever massacres. You can be aware of it without taking the blame.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Post by throoooway » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

dillondoyle wrote: post #678

soucy wrote: post #559

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bullshit. There are problems but it's not because of some "war on masculinity". The real issues are economic.

I agree 100% on the dramatic economic problems we are facing. But I also can't help but feel commenters are conflating 'attack on masculinity' !== 'attack on toxic masculinity.' There is not some organized movement trying to make young boys 'less of a man.' I'm guessing a very large % of HN is male so would be nice to amplify any female voices who want to chime in.

There is non stop end to end societal cheerleading of everyone who is not a white man, with the implications being that white men are bad.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Post by prestigious » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:35 AM UTC

nodejs_rulez_1 wrote: post #407

pcbro141 wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On a related note, on mainstream TV/articles about declining marriage/birthrates in the West, it's common to see criticisms about modern Western men. How women can't find life partners because men aren't masculine enough anymore, don't want to grow up, don't get educated etc. But very rarely do you see any criticism or even questioning about modern Western women and what men want in a woman. Only what women want. The…

It will go mainstream soon enough. Alternative talk shows like Kevin Samuels are gaining traction. The queen is naked.

Kevin samuels is a trip. I mean I intuitively understood a lot of what he says but to see all these women claim to be 9s and 10s when they are 3s and 4s and expecting men to make 500k+ is unreal. Women today are seriously delusional

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#778

Post by hajile » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:36 AM UTC

okaram wrote: post #690

grammarnazzzi wrote: post #624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically The extreme elements of 3rd wave feminism has influcenced society in ways that unfairly and negatively impact boys. Specifically the concept of "toxic masculinity". Toxic people are toxic. Toxic behaviors are toxic. Toxic people should be shamed and toxic behaviors should be discouraged. Boys should not be shamed for being masculine,…

The problem is that some behaviors traditionally associated with masculinity (mostly violence) are toxic, hence toxic masculinity.

There was a study on domestic violence a few years ago. It broke down DV into asymmetric violence (one violent person) and symmetric violent (both people).

It found that the overwhelming bulk of DV was symmetric. In asymmetric cases, it was actually perpetuated by the woman in some 2/3 of cases. Further, in symmetric violence, the women admitted to starting the encounters 2/3 of the time.

Likewise, if a weapon is involved in DV, it was used by a woman in something like 4 out of 5 cases.

In most places, the law is to arrest the bigger party even if they were NOT the aggressor. Further, the law often dictates that an arrest is MANDATORY. This combination makes it easy to arrest large numbers of men which then plays havoc with the DV statistics.

As another data point, DV between gay (male) partners is several times less than heterosexual partners while DV between lesbian partners is several times higher.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Post by cjohnson318 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

acituan wrote: post #747

cjohnson318 wrote: post #725

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Men run most governments. Men own most companies. Men dominate the higher levels of corporations. Most engineers, doctors, lawyers, investors, and other highly paid professionals are men. Men simply own more capital than women, by a huge margin. It looks like schools are performing better for men than women.

Allow me to correct the two logical distortions in your proposition. Distortion 1) You can't take the outliers of a flatter distribution and generalize that to the entire population. You can't even compare the averages of two separate distributions without qualifiers. It is true, most of the people who run governments are men. Most of the people who own companies are men. Most of the people who dominate C levels are…

So, what is your take on this? Do we ignore the fact that the top of our society is dominated by men and only focus on the men in the 40th to 60th percentile of income? Even then, you would see a similar pattern between the earning potential between men and women. I just fail to see where men are getting a raw deal here.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#780

Post by qq4 » Sat, Jun 12, 2021, 5:37 AM UTC

wouldChuckIt wrote: post #601

stemlord wrote: post #558

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. I spent a mere year after college living with my parents, a very long and sad year, wondering if this was going to be the rest of my life. My next real job came somewhat out of sheer luck and I'm thankful for it because I could totally see myself having given up, still back there to this day, still having no idea how…

Made a throwaway for obvious reasons. I'm in the middle of that year right now. I was doing well - transferred from community college to a top university studying engineering. Perfect grades, several prestigious summer internships. Then I had a depressive episode. Grades went down the toilet, had to leave school. Spent a year getting my life back together, but the depression never really went away. I went back to sch…

You're speaking in past tense about baggage you carry. No one is keeping score but yourself. The only way your life will improve is tackling your issues instead of making excuses for them. I say this with kindness, you need to get over it. If playing video games or watching YouTube all day is really the "absolute last thing" you want then act like it. You make your own opportunities, outside of that it's simply luck.