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Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

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Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#711
post #557

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When all you’ve known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

In my country, there are 50% more women in colleges than men, and our colleges still work more to attract more women (with eg. girls-only workshops, etc... we used to call this segregation and/or sexism back in my time). Lets say you have Alice and Bob... they both finished college, both are looking for a job, and they both decide to start their own company - Alice will make plastic spoons, and Bob will make plastic…

The openminded-ness towards how a woman deals with a pregnancy vs the fact that the same anti-abortion thought process is still being applied to only the man is very frustrating.

If she wants to abort, that is certainly her choice. If a woman wants to keep a child, that is wonderful, but the man should not be forced into child support. Moreso because the choice about the child's existence should only be in the woman's hands since she gives birth to the child.

The irony of people who support abortion saying that if a man didn't want to pay child support he shouldn't have had sex is just staggering.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#712

I've got two nephews aged 34 and 32 who still live at home and play video games all the time and rarely leave their rooms. Neither has ever had a job that lasted more than a month or so. Neither ever learned to drive even though they live in a town with little or no public transit. They haven't had any education beyond high school. They seem wholly unprepared to navigate life without their parents. It's a slow motion…

They are just waiting for that UBI to kick in. Free ride till the end!

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#713
post #493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Video game addiction (overuse) is a coping mechanism in the face of increased anxiety in the modern world. You are stating this in absolute terms, which indicates to me that you have a solid source, or are an expert in the field. If so, can you please detail? From my background working in psychiatry (in-patient) for six years, it is certainly not that clear. > Real addictions have severe physical consequences like…

Genuinely curious: Is video game addiction different in kind to anorexia? My understanding is the latter is often a symptom of wanting control over something. I see getting stuck on video games the same way.

I would say they're different, because it's possible to remove a lot of the triggers associated with video games, gambling, alcohol, and drugs (by not having them easily accessible, for example) but it's not possible to do that with food.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#714
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did they grow up with their biological father?

What's this emphasis on biological ? Are adoptive fathers sub-standard?

Well as prospective adoptive father... In some ways... Yes. That was part of our adoption training. To learn that many adoptees want to know their biological mom and dad and suffer greatly if they're not able. An adoptive father can provide all the emotional support in the world and the day to day fathering, but he can't provide the biology, whereas a biological one can provide both the day to day fathering and the bio connection.

It's not a popular sentiment... But it was required as part of our certification in california. When separated from mom and dad, they call it the primal wound, but our society accepts separating children from one parent without any of the guilting they require adoptive parents to go through.

From a purely empirical standpoint, in aggregate, biological father's are the least likely to hurt or kill their children. Both adoptive father's and step father's are more likely to. Says nothing about individuals, but as a society it would behoove the powers that be to ensure most kids are raised by bio parents. And by far most states adopt this approach, even to the point of absurdity.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#715
What should strong, stupid men do?

Male participation in the economy peaked in the 1950s. It began to decline as the USA automated agriculture.

Millions of years of evolution gave us some men who are very strong, but very stupid. There used to be an abundance of jobs for such men. Agriculture, in particular, provided endless jobs for such people.

Some of these jobs paid surprisingly well.

When I was very young, I spent 6 summer/winter cycles working at Mack's Apples:

https://macksapples.com/

They paid piece rate. You got $1.25 per bucket of apple's that you picked. You could make $14 an hour, then; adjusting for inflation that's about $24 an hour now.

I'm not especially strong, nor especially stupid, but I was able to make decent money, back before I got started in tech. It was the best paying job available to me, back then. Those jobs no longer exist. (That apple orchard focused on "Pick Your Own Apples" where the gross margins are better, plus they planted a few short trees that could be easily harvested by untrained high school students. The orchard cut down most of the big trees, because those trees required skill to harvest.)

But again, what should we do with very strong, very stupid men? There used to be an abundance of jobs for them, some of which paid well. Nowadays there are no jobs for them.

I can't see how or when this trend reverses. The era of good paying jobs for stupid people has ended, and I don't know how it could ever come back.

See the chart here:

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2007/jan/wk2/art03.htm

You can plainly see that men have been leaving the labor force since the 1950s. Recent events are less influential than the overall trend, which was more dramatic during 1950-1990.

The loss of agriculture was huge, and then later the deindustrialization.

Seriously, it is going to take some real imagination to create a positive vision for stupid people in the future.

Please note, I'm using the word "stupid" here partly to overstate the point. Hopefully everyone is aware that there are many different types of knowing, not all of which resembles the book knowledge taught in schools. But the point is that the economy now favors book knowledge taught in schools. Those other forms of knowing are important, and were shaped by millions of years of evolution, and were once crucial to our survival, but right now we have an economy that does not pay for those other kinds of knowing.

(I have a friend who did poorly in high school and never went to college. He is a fanatic birder and environmentalist. He claims he knows over 2,000 bird call songs. I believe him; I've been in the woods with him and he knows a lot. But he can't get a job identifying bird songs.)

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#716

I'm in the labor force, but live at home. I can absolutely afford to purchase a home. Why don't I? Because I'm not spending $250,000+ on 1400sq ft. These types of articles make it seem like some huge mystery as to why society is the way it is today. It's no mystery. Houses cost to much and employers don't pay enough.

I also can't compete with Blackrock and other professionally managed funds buying up swaths of homes tens of thousands of dollars over asking price because they want to rent them out later.

let's fund our own town!

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#717

what do these young men have to look forward to in life? home ownership and having a family probably seem so financially out of reach that kids are not even trying.

Video games, movies, books, and other such entertainment. I genuinely believe that this is what they're looking forward to.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#718

Men are not doing as well as women in school. If you look in the wrong places on the internet, media, or daily life, all you see is negativity towards masculinity. In addition, there doesn't appear to be any broad social system that is geared towards supporting men. The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. This all feels like the perfect storm and there are plenty of people who act like "men…

Especially a problem because for almost all men a career and supporting family (maybe the hardest thing to figure out in life) is non optional, whereas half the female friends I have from college have abandoned careers to saddle up to a breadwinner ... I mean I kind of want that option but men don't really have it. Does anyone ever really discuss this social reality that makes it different for men v women in real wor…

> Especially a problem because for almost all men a career and supporting family (maybe the hardest thing to figure out in life) is non optional...

What do you mean? Of course those are optional. If you don't want a career, you're not going to have one. If you don't want to get married and support a family, then you don't have to.

I mean, "saddle up to a breadwinner" is an extremely demeaning thing to say about a whole class of people. The reality is that men dominate all desirable, successful professions, so the probability of a man "saddling up" to a woman that makes significantly more than him is very small.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#719

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's this emphasis on biological ? Are adoptive fathers sub-standard?

Well as prospective adoptive father... In some ways... Yes. That was part of our adoption training. To learn that many adoptees want to know their biological mom and dad and suffer greatly if they're not able. An adoptive father can provide all the emotional support in the world and the day to day fathering, but he can't provide the biology, whereas a biological one can provide both the day to day fathering and the b…

Great response, thanks. I didn't know that was part of the training.

Re: Fewer young men are in the labor force, more are living at home

#720
post #269

What are the things that motivates them, and what do they themselves want to do in life? I ask this because much of the undertone in the article and in this thread is about the failure of meeting the gender role expectations that are put on young men. Do they have a job and a car? Have they studied hard so they can get a good job in order to support a wife and kid? Culture in the last several decades have hammered do…

I don't think a lot of people know what motivates them or what they want to do in life. If you could play video games all day and have fun or force yourself to study or work at a hard job all day, what would you choose? Wouldn't most people prefer the easier and fun option?

Do you have a solution to this? (I've been thinking about it for a while and I don't know)

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