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Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

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101–110 of 163 posts

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#101
post #13

> We should stop trying to pay for good work, and instead, try to hire people who like doing good work and damn the pay. This is in line with the traditional folk wisdom of Cambridge: “hire good people and let them get on with it”. > Lastly, to make the economists less greedy, they should be paid less. Ha, I needed a good chuckle in the morning. I'll be damned if I accept a job where they except high-quality work for…

The moment any economic argument is made that relies on human altruism is the moment it should be rejected. Some people may act altruistic some of the time, but in aggregate people refuse to be scammed to help the “greater good”.

Are you sure? You know about public goods experiments with punishment, right?

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#102

Maybe the incentives for universities are all wrong. In the early 1900's only 4% of the US went to university. There ended up being a big push to get more people into college with the assumption that it would benefit society. Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? What if the incentives created lots o…

I vehemently disagree. Education is a value in itself, whatever its impact on the economy or on technology is. People have an innate right to be as educated as they want (and can handle).

Of course, it doesn't follow that they have a right to be considered researchers or publish papers afterwards, and the plethora of bad research may be a real problem. However, it should be noted that academic pseudosciences are not a new phenomenon, and they have sometimes been much more destructive than some of today's examples. Race science, phrenology, medicine in the time of bloodletting and others have been respected academic pursuits created by elites, not the result of anything like over-education.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#103

Maybe the incentives for universities are all wrong. In the early 1900's only 4% of the US went to university. There ended up being a big push to get more people into college with the assumption that it would benefit society. Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? What if the incentives created lots o…

> Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong?

> What if the incentives created lots of university departments that were superfluous, producing nothing that was actually benefitting society.

I would say that those are two completely independent issues, that just look alike because of policy.

Now, about the actual subject, I'm not sure. The knowledge one gets at higher education brings a lot of possibilities too. It's not all signaling. An educated society is supposed to create wealth by itself, and this seems to happen on practice. I would look elsewhere for the origins of our current economic stagnation.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do we do when choice conflicts? Say, if a black family wants to send their kid to local school in a predominately white neighborhood, and there is a limited capacity?

It seems like the solution most institutions land on for this kind of thing is just a first come first serve sign up list. Kids who attended the school the previous year, and kids who have siblings currently attending the school, get first priority for open slots. The rest of the slots are first come first serve. This is how my kid's school, a charter school, works.

Sign-up lists self select for parents who are most motivated to get the best school, which has the risk of maintaining roughly positive correlation with the parent's socioeconomic status.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#105

Maybe the incentives for universities are all wrong. In the early 1900's only 4% of the US went to university. There ended up being a big push to get more people into college with the assumption that it would benefit society. Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? What if the incentives created lots o…

My understanding of the history (in the United States) is this. College used to be almost exclusively for the rich. Now, while there were always students who went to college as a stepping stone to the further study of medicine, law, or theology, there were plenty of rich kids — "legacies," they were called — who went only because they were from the "right kind" of families, and went only to network with others from the same social circles.

This is where the idea of a "Gentleman's C" comes from. You see, their lives were already pretty well set out. You made connections, graduated, and then went to work for your father or uncle, or your father or uncle's firm; or, married the daughter of a well-to-do family and went to work for your father-in-law.

But there has long been an egalitarian and meritocratic strain in the United States, and after WWII, as a way of saying thank you to those who had saved the world from Hitler, the GI Bill was started. This was a great success.

The GI Bill made it possible for older, generally more mature, and generally more motivated individuals to attend college. Interestingly, the "gentlemen" students, the anecdote goes, used to complain about these people as "DAB's": Damn Average Busters. Those on the GI Bill weren't satisfied with grades of C (whether real or given with a wink).

Now, here I break from the history to my own opinion. The former GI's were a special cohort. To identify them as merely middle and working class people benefiting from college, and from there to imagine that all (or nearly all) middle and working class young people could benefit from college just does not follow.

But, whether or not one follows from the other, it's a wonderful thing for a politician to promise, and just the kind of thing people want to believe. Promising to send the children of your constituents to trade school just doesn't have the same ring to it. So, it became college for everybody.

From here, I can pick up with what you're saying, and add that what you're saying jibes with what Allan Bloom said, way back in 1987, with his Closing of the American Mind. Bloom argued that middle class people are far more practical, economically — not having well-to-do fathers, uncles, and father-in-laws to fall back on; and because of that, colleges had to retool to become far more practical. In other words, many of the new degrees — at least at first — were closer to the aims of trade schools than traditional liberal arts curriculums. It seems like things were like that for a while.

Where I think it gets worse is that government money has created a bubble in higher education, a bubble that has created degrees which I term luxury degrees. These degrees are neither traditional college curriculums or glorified trade school syllabi. These are the so-called "navel gazing" or "basket weaving" courses. Maybe, if you were rich and lacked the ability to take over the family business, your rich parents might send you off to study one of these luxury majors, and that might make some kind of sense. Maybe you'd still meet a nice girl or boy, and then fall back on your trust fund. In any case, it would be their money and their business; and, in any case, how much of that sort of thing would there be? But spending taxpayer money to fund these courses of study and produce these degree holders is ludicrous. It is gross malinvestment, plain and simple.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A distinction should be drawn between “this entire field is useless” and “the current discussions in this field are wankery”. IMO, STEMlordery stems from students surmising—correctly or not—that their humanities professor’s publications are wankery and then falsely assuming that the entire field is hokey junk. Accrediting boards who demand proof that all departments produce relevant scholarly work are also to blame f…

I have observed that purported STEMlordery is more of myth than reality, or a caricature created by the media. I have found that on many stem-centric communities that people employed in STEM have great respect for the humanities, such as history, philosophy, or writing. Look at how many non-STEM articles get voted to the top of hacker news, such as articles about literature or philosophy.

[deleted]

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#107

Maybe the incentives for universities are all wrong. In the early 1900's only 4% of the US went to university. There ended up being a big push to get more people into college with the assumption that it would benefit society. Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? What if the incentives created lots o…

This position strikes me as unjustifiably elitist, reminiscent perhaps of Allan Bloom's The Closing of the American Mind.

> lots of university departments that were superfluous, producing nothing that was actually benefitting society

Who's to decide precisely what does and doesn't benefit society? More so, how can you decide in advance which line of inquiry will prove fruitful and which won't? Shouldn't you cast a broad net, especially when it comes to academia?

> government subsidies targeting those who could not complete STEM degrees

This, I'm sure, varies greatly between countries. But why do you think there's such a clear hierarchy of academic topics? It's quite dismissive of entire fields to assume that the people who are involved with them are simply STEM drop-outs.

As a side note I would also have to say that lumping together science, engineering and mathematics doesn't make much sense to me - this observation is not targeted at the parent, it's just a general peeve I have.

> Have we reached a state of elite-overproduction?

What would the alternative be? Back to the aristocracy, or to something like the Gilded Age or Belle Epoque?

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#108

Maybe the incentives for universities are all wrong. In the early 1900's only 4% of the US went to university. There ended up being a big push to get more people into college with the assumption that it would benefit society. Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? What if the incentives created lots o…

> Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong?

The mistake was assuming "going to college" was the goal and not "learning something useful." Too many kids spend years of their life and earnings studying completely useless degrees.

> Maybe the incentives focused universities on creating more "education" so they could rake in the cash made readily available through government subsidies targeting those who could not complete STEM degrees.

Nail, head, yep.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#109

Maybe the incentives for universities are all wrong. In the early 1900's only 4% of the US went to university. There ended up being a big push to get more people into college with the assumption that it would benefit society. Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? What if the incentives created lots o…

I vehemently disagree. Education is a value in itself, whatever its impact on the economy or on technology is. People have an innate right to be as educated as they want (and can handle). Of course, it doesn't follow that they have a right to be considered researchers or publish papers afterwards, and the plethora of bad research may be a real problem. However, it should be noted that academic pseudosciences are not…

But does education need to look like universities and colleges? Education used to look (for most people) like apprenticeships, which is more like a tutoring approach without study of anything unnecessary to your trade.

Maybe a better system in modern times would be a combination of mentoring with official recommendations and travel (to broaden horizons).

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#110
post #108

Maybe the incentives for universities are all wrong. In the early 1900's only 4% of the US went to university. There ended up being a big push to get more people into college with the assumption that it would benefit society. Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? What if the incentives created lots o…

> Eventually we ended up with a notion that everyone should go to college and this has been buttressed with government support but what if this idea is wrong? The mistake was assuming "going to college" was the goal and not "learning something useful." Too many kids spend years of their life and earnings studying completely useless degrees. > Maybe the incentives focused universities on creating more "education" so t…

We have been long past point where just a degree is enough. What the degree is in is also important. And here even some hard-science paths like physics can be limiting.
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