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Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

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Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#91
post #10

> We should stop trying to pay for good work, and instead, try to hire people who like doing good work and damn the pay. This is in line with the traditional folk wisdom of Cambridge: “hire good people and let them get on with it”. > Lastly, to make the economists less greedy, they should be paid less. Ha, I needed a good chuckle in the morning. I'll be damned if I accept a job where they except high-quality work for…

> to make economists less greedy they should be paid less How about we tax billionaires, and pay our academics real wages? I was an academic once, and I made near minimum wage. It's insane to set up a reward structure that punishes thinking people and rewards the randomness of birth.

Looking over the list of top billionaires, well under half appear to have been passive beneficiaries of birth randomness.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with your larger point but: > This may show up as lots of superfluous/unreproducible papers and journals many not even based on the scientific method. seems very STEM-centric. It sounds like you're saying academia outside of the realm of science is useless which I completely disagree with.

I think the problem is that non-STEM classes have been dumbed down to the point where they just aren't on the same level. You see lots of failed science majors in English class, but no failed English majors in differential equations class. But why not? Writing is hard, and if you had to be as good of a writer to be an English major as you do at math to be a math major, lots of people would fail out of that too. But t…

> You see lots of failed science majors in English class, but no failed English majors in differential equations class.

I always find this funny to read, because that's more or less what happened to me. I was originally very interested in philosophy and the classics, but I just couldn't keep up with the reading and paper assignments. I'm not a bad writer in general, but I'm terrible at writing academic papers. I picked CS/math because I was tired of staring at a blank word document and slowly panicking for a week. with CS/math, I could just sit down and start making progress immediately on a problem set or coding project.

I see the point of what you're saying though. there's a limit to how rigorous an english class can practically be. the difference between bad and mediocre writing is mostly mechanics. but what's the difference between good and great writing? I doubt the "experts" could even agree, let alone come up with a rubric for grading papers.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#93

We're walking into the middle of an argument that's been going on for a while here. "Economic(s) imperialism" is the tendency of economists to write papers topics outside traditional economics. While the people in (say) the sociology department seem to have to confine themselves to sociology. As Tyler Cowen writes on Marginal Revolution [1] quoted by Kevin Munger in the piece this piece is responding to: " - Mammogra…

I like imperialism a lot, from harder to softer sciences. It can represent a frustration that people are missing something very obvious, reflecting an underlying ignorance that is farcical or embarrassing. For example, Hardy the mathematician is best known not for his brilliant work in number theory or analysis, but for one paper in 1908 which taught biologists how to multiply numbers together. Ergo, we can presume that biologists prior to 1908 did not know how to multiply numbers, and that multiplication introduced a shining light on the field. [1]

A more concrete example is that anthropology was introduced to statistics in the 1960s. [2] Before that, many papers use storytelling as their main evidence. They reflect the thesis the author wants to present, and experiments were not available to anthropologists as a tool. This makes it hard to tell which papers should be taken seriously and which should not. You either trust the author or don't; you can't analyze his procedure. So papers cannot build on each other, and progress is halting. The quality of anthropology papers rises substantially after 1970, thanks to experimental methods. Scientific imperialism has turned modern anthropology into one of the paragons of social science, with enormously interesting results today.

Here's a fun experience in which you can discover this phenomenon for yourself. Synthetic reverbs rely on delay lines, and the question is, how to choose the delay lengths? Every reverb engineer has spent impressive amounts of time manually tuning their delay lengths in random ways, then listening to the result, then tuning some more. The task is to choose a set of N real numbers such that their lattice points (linear combinations with nonnegative integral coefficients) are maximally separated in the best sense you can. For example, if N=2, then 1 and 5/7 would be unsuitable, because 1 x 5 = 5/7 x 7 = 5, and exact overlaps are poorly separated. Irrational numbers do better, because they at least never have exact matches. Manual tuning is hard because tweaking one number to erase an overlap will introduce a different overlap.

You, the non-mathematical reader, can now solve this problem by navigating to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markov_constant, reading the definition of "quadratic irrationality", and picking square roots of squarefree integers as your solution. Congratulations, in 5 minutes, you solved most of a major open problem, on which reverb engineers have spent 10000 hours and made no progress. First person to write a paper gets credit. [3]

There's a general malaise in reverb engineers regarding mathematics and science. Some people already have the background information to solve the problem, as they know 1.618 is the solution for N=2 (which leads to Hurwitz's theorem, then Markov constants). But then they advocate for 1.618^x for N>=3, which means they are doing cargo cult mysticism around magical numbers, rather than actual mathematics. Note that powers of 1.618 are linear combinations of smaller powers, so their answer is the worst possible.

[1] I'm just joking. But only partially joking. Hardy-Weinberg principle. [2] https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/abs/10.1146/annurev.an.14.... [3] I'm joking for real this time. Writing a paper will do nothing.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but there are tradeoffs everywhere. I'd look at the big picture instead. Are we better off than, say, 100 years ago?

Yes, there are tradeoffs anywhere - which means we should rationally assess what we're putting into education and whether at least some of those resources can be put to better use in other ways.

Too much optimization reminds me of what happens when removing all slack from supply chains: when it fails it takes down the whole system. I'd leave some inefficiencies here and there, we're human after all. Of course, I'm not talking about gross inefficiencies. But are there any? By what measure?

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between outlawing enforcement of segregation by law and enforcing laws requiring people to go to schools they may not want their kids to go to. I think calling the second "finishing" the first is misleading. However, there is a huge problem in school funding. The fact that school funding is primarily local means that poor neighborhoods get bad schools. That is a huge problem. We definitely should…

> However, there is a huge problem in school funding. School funding is actually not as inegalitarian as you might have been led to believe - federal & state funding usually makes up for the differences in property tax funding, we're often spending more $/kid at these bad schools. > There's a difference between outlawing enforcement of segregation by law and enforcing laws requiring people to go to schools they may n…

> we're often spending more $/kid at these bad schools.

Source? I'm surprised to hear that.

> The distinction you're making is between de jure segregation and de facto segregation, both of which are constitutional violations.

I disagree. It is not a consitutional violation for black people to live near each other and go to schools with each other. People segregate themselves socially all the time, for better or worse, and it has nothing to do with the constitution. It would be incredibly dubious to suggest that forcing people to integrate socially would be an appropriate government action - especially if done over a long period of time.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree with your larger point but: > This may show up as lots of superfluous/unreproducible papers and journals many not even based on the scientific method. seems very STEM-centric. It sounds like you're saying academia outside of the realm of science is useless which I completely disagree with.

Not OP, but would like to say : I don't think science outside of stem is useless, but it is fundamentally different and fundentally less reliable/reproducible. In terms of reliability and rigor, it seems to go about like : Math -> computer science -> physics/chemistry -> biology -> everything else. As you continue, you must ignore more independent variables to conduct an experiment. By the time you get to social scie…

Article author here. I take your point, but you know there's more to social science than studies of feelings about gender acceptance, right? Here's a randomized controlled trial about how to distribute bednets for malaria: http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/sitefiles/file/bednet.... Getting this right potentially saves thousands of lives. It's a rigorous experiment, so in terms of causality you could argue it's considerably tighter and less theory-dependent than e.g. earth sciences.

There are really two issues here which get conflated. First, social life is complex, people aren't like atoms, and all our explanations are gross simplifications. Second, yes, there's a lot of bullshit social science out there. But there's also some real social science, and it can address important issues.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A distinction should be drawn between “this entire field is useless” and “the current discussions in this field are wankery”. IMO, STEMlordery stems from students surmising—correctly or not—that their humanities professor’s publications are wankery and then falsely assuming that the entire field is hokey junk. Accrediting boards who demand proof that all departments produce relevant scholarly work are also to blame f…

I have observed that purported STEMlordery is more of myth than reality, or a caricature created by the media. I have found that on many stem-centric communities that people employed in STEM have great respect for the humanities, such as history, philosophy, or writing. Look at how many non-STEM articles get voted to the top of hacker news, such as articles about literature or philosophy.

Personally I love literature and art, my bedroom is lined with poetry books in several languages, and for that very reason, I dislike much of the modern humanities, with their pious, dreary approach to these beautiful and important things.

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#99
post #93

We're walking into the middle of an argument that's been going on for a while here. "Economic(s) imperialism" is the tendency of economists to write papers topics outside traditional economics. While the people in (say) the sociology department seem to have to confine themselves to sociology. As Tyler Cowen writes on Marginal Revolution [1] quoted by Kevin Munger in the piece this piece is responding to: " - Mammogra…

I like imperialism a lot, from harder to softer sciences. It can represent a frustration that people are missing something very obvious, reflecting an underlying ignorance that is farcical or embarrassing. For example, Hardy the mathematician is best known not for his brilliant work in number theory or analysis, but for one paper in 1908 which taught biologists how to multiply numbers together. Ergo, we can presume t…

I think this will entertain you: https://fliptomato.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/medical-research...

Re: Incentives in economics are wrong, but how?

#100
post #17

> We should stop trying to pay for good work, and instead, try to hire people who like doing good work and damn the pay. This is in line with the traditional folk wisdom of Cambridge: “hire good people and let them get on with it”. > Lastly, to make the economists less greedy, they should be paid less. Ha, I needed a good chuckle in the morning. I'll be damned if I accept a job where they except high-quality work for…

There are an unfortunate amount of people out there who think everyone else should do their jobs out of love of the work and not worry about pay. I've found they rarely hold themselves to this standard, though, and try to find excuses for why it shouldn't apply to them. You hear people who aren't teachers say this about teachers quite often, especially when they're complaining about the yearly education budget.

Article author here. I do indeed work in an economics department. I admit that my sentiment was a bit tongue-in-cheek, because the chance of the discipline supporting this idea seems... low. But I do worry about the effect of very high salaries for "big shots", and I take seriously the risk that we attract people with the wrong mindset.
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