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New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

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Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#131

Post by sneak »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #128
sneak wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that individuals should control their own devices. I also agree with Apple's implicit claim that if iOS users could sideload apps, millions of idiot iOS users would get their devices owned after they followed some "follow these seven steps to get free $POPULAR_MOBILE_GAME tokens!" guide they found on the web, making the platform less trustworthy overall. Apple makes a good argument that buying an iPhone is al…

Your first paragraph contradicts the second and third paragraphs! If you believe that individuals should control their own devices, why are you in favor of Apple retaining control of every iPhone it sells? Pick one!

I didn't claim to be in favor of Apple retaining control of every iPhone they sell. Please re-read my comment.

My claim is that for most users of iPhones, the situation of Apple being in control of their device, rather than themselves, results in a better outcome for that user (and is oftentimes explicitly preferred by that user as a result, and is reflected in their purchase of an iPhone).

In fact, Apple delegates control of an iPhone's userspace execution environment to any iPhone owner who wants it: they will give you a signing cert for use in xcode to run any app you want on your own device (no developer subscription necessary). This is how AltStore works, and allows AltStore users to run emulator apps on the iPhones they own.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#132

Post by Wowfunhappy »

sneak wrote: post #125
Dracophoenix wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a good argument if you assume that Apple is fundamentally interested in consumer security. It isn't. Apple is fundamentally interested in control. Security, however Apple defines it, is a chosen means to the extent that is fulfills the company's primary goal. That's not to say that Apple should behave like a charitable force. A company's goals and decisions are its own prerogative. But as we've seen with th…

> You're buying into the blackbox of Apple's present and future business decisions whether whether that suits your needs or not. You don't have to install updates.

iOS updates aren't forced, no.

However, if you install an update to try it out, or because you didn't realize that it would e.g. break 32bit support, you can never downgrade again (unless you happen to be within a two-week-ish period.)

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#133

Post by Dracophoenix »

pembrook wrote: post #99
ChicagoBoy11 wrote: post #38

What would be the best argument against this sort of legislation?

You won't hear any here. HN, while libertarian-leaning on many issues, is overwhelmingly in favor of government regulation on this topic. I'll be downvoted, but here's a few real potential downsides (which exist anytime a small group of people with good intentions THINK they understand a complex issue enough to fix it). All regulation has unintended consequences: Ineffective at stopping E-waste - The main reason peop…

This is an issue I myself have had to consider. Personally I'm no fan of government interference in this matter even if I'm not a big fan of Apple's practices as a whole. While I'm on board with the ideas behind R2R, I can't in anyway support an imposition of producing spare parts or manuals by legislative writ.

In the long run, it would probably be ineffective as well. Most of the big companies would probably ignore the law and/or sue the state. I'm sure there'll be first amendment issues citing compelled speech with regards to being forced to produce manuals.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#134

Post by Dracophoenix »

brixon wrote: post #108
tiffanyh wrote: post #41

Devils advocate: Why is hardware treated different than software? If I own a perpetual license for some type of software, should I be entitled to “repair” the software I own. (Note: I’m not including SaaS in this since your don’t own that)

You have to first fight the battle that you do not own the software, but that you only have a license to use the software. If you win that, then you can fight for repair.

In the United States yes, but in Europe there is no such distinction.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#135

Post by Wowfunhappy »

sneak wrote: post #131
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your first paragraph contradicts the second and third paragraphs! If you believe that individuals should control their own devices, why are you in favor of Apple retaining control of every iPhone it sells? Pick one!

I didn't claim to be in favor of Apple retaining control of every iPhone they sell. Please re-read my comment. My claim is that for most users of iPhones, the situation of Apple being in control of their device, rather than themselves, results in a better outcome for that user (and is oftentimes explicitly preferred by that user as a result, and is reflected in their purchase of an iPhone). In fact, Apple delegates c…

> My claim is that for most users of iPhones, the situation of Apple being in control of their device, rather than themselves, results in a better outcome for that user (and is oftentimes explicitly preferred by that user as a result, and is reflected in their purchase of an iPhone).

Okay, but that comes out to the same thing, since I can't buy an iPhone which isn't Apple managed. If Apple offered a choice, that would be one thing—but they don't.

> In fact, Apple delegates control of an iPhone's execution environment to any iPhone owner who wants it: they will give you a signing cert for use in xcode to run any app you want on your own device.

What they give you is the ability to sign up to three apps at a time, all of which expire after seven days. It's not useful for anything but testing.

Plus, you're stuck in the App Store sandbox. You can't downgrade to an earlier operating system, you can't inspect the HTTPS traffic being sent out of your phone, and you can't even run anything that uses a JIT.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#136

Post by milesvp »

sschueller wrote: post #23
ourmandave wrote: post #2

Normally the next step would be a vote on an identical bill in the state’s Assembly. But Thursday is the last day of session for the NY legislature, and the bill has not yet escaped committee, making a vote by the full Assembly unlikely. The battle for fair repair in New York will continue into next year’s session, with a strong record of success. So eventually... maybe.

We aren't even at the half way point of the year and this is already the end of the years session? In a large state like NY? How does anything get done? This isn't some small town in the middle of nowhere.

There’s actually a problem here in washington state, and I’d guess in other states as well, that most of the legislators are real estate agents. They’re one of the few common professions that can afford to take off months at a time and still make significant income the rest of the year.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#137

Post by Dracophoenix »

sneak wrote: post #125
Dracophoenix wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only a good argument if you assume that Apple is fundamentally interested in consumer security. It isn't. Apple is fundamentally interested in control. Security, however Apple defines it, is a chosen means to the extent that is fulfills the company's primary goal. That's not to say that Apple should behave like a charitable force. A company's goals and decisions are its own prerogative. But as we've seen with th…

> You're buying into the blackbox of Apple's present and future business decisions whether whether that suits your needs or not. You don't have to install updates.

You can't downgrade/upgrade the OS to a specific version of an update after a fortnight or thereabouts. That's an artificial constraint applied by Apple. It's not even possible to do so offline with iTunes even if one has the IPSWs. If you check the /r/jailbreak subreddit, talented coders have to hack the SEP and build complicated, low-level-interacting software like futurestore in order to perform a semi-successful downgrade/upgrade.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#138

Post by ff317 »

wiz21c wrote: post #112
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO it comes down to this: do we advocate for laws that give companies the ability to decide what is right/safe for the public, or do we advocate for laws that reflect trust in the individual? This is a really great way to put it, and it applies broadly to so many fundamental disagreements in the tech world. I firmly believe it’s better to trust the individual—so I think users should be able to sideload iOS apps (o…

> IMO it comes down to this: do we advocate for laws that give companies the ability to decide what is right/safe for the public, or do we advocate for laws that reflect trust in the individual? In the US, I think, some companies sell weapons and nobody seems to care if people can hurt themselves with them.

The comparison is more appropriate than you maybe even intended. Cars are considered weapons (e.g. driving at someone is assault with a deadly weapon), and cars are very dangerous in general and kill lots of people (and not just the drivers!). Yet, we still want right-to-repair on cars.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#139

Post by vageli »

wiz21c wrote: post #112
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> IMO it comes down to this: do we advocate for laws that give companies the ability to decide what is right/safe for the public, or do we advocate for laws that reflect trust in the individual? This is a really great way to put it, and it applies broadly to so many fundamental disagreements in the tech world. I firmly believe it’s better to trust the individual—so I think users should be able to sideload iOS apps (o…

> IMO it comes down to this: do we advocate for laws that give companies the ability to decide what is right/safe for the public, or do we advocate for laws that reflect trust in the individual? In the US, I think, some companies sell weapons and nobody seems to care if people can hurt themselves with them.

It's ridiculous they sell knives in supermarkets, where anyone could procure them and without background checks.

Re: New York Senate passes Right to Repair bill

#140

Post by spicybright »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #102
joshspankit wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’ve used a grey argument. Apple themselves have argued that one of the reasons they have to limit repair is for public safety (someone could have a battery explode if they pierce it, for example), whereas we could also argue the other side: that if someone modifies their own medical device and gets hurt because of it that they legally only hurt themselves because they had the right to make that choice. IMO it come…

> IMO it comes down to this: do we advocate for laws that give companies the ability to decide what is right/safe for the public, or do we advocate for laws that reflect trust in the individual? This is a really great way to put it, and it applies broadly to so many fundamental disagreements in the tech world. I firmly believe it’s better to trust the individual—so I think users should be able to sideload iOS apps (o…

Absolutely when it comes to tech. It's fairly inconsequential sideloading something to your phone.

Medical devices I think should need a someone well versed to work on it.

With cars, the current model most states in the US have is a good middle ground. You can do whatever you want to your car, but it needs to pass a safety inspection every 2 years to drive it legally.

The inspections in my state are fairly comprehensive. Airbags, seat belts, headlight brightness, and structural stability of the frame to name a few.

It also helps the US has a strong car culture with tons of experienced DIY-ers, which I imagine helps.

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