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French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

independent.co.uk

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Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#381

Post by beebeepka »

smcl wrote: post #237
beebeepka wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This site is hilarious. It says .eu but supposed European news are just UK news. Need I sa more?

The front page is covered in non-UK news though? So yes you really need to say more I think. I think we're beyond speculation that this is a story concocted by the UK media - it's picked up in France too https://www.lefigaro.fr/vox/monde/la-presidence-francaise-de...

Frankly, I have no idea what you mean. I just opened the site again and first page is 50% US news, 40% UK and 10% dedicated to whatever...

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#382

Post by jobigoud »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #147
tgv wrote: post #14

> the taste and pride of multilingualism For everybody but the French, that is. > that ersatz of the English language, which narrows the scope of one’s thoughts, and restricts one’s ability to express him or herself And the ability to formulate a new policy with a subtle twist in your favor that no-one gets until it's too late. Embarrassing.

> that ersatz of the English language, which narrows the scope of one’s thoughts, and restricts one’s ability to express him or herself This sounds awfully close to Sapir–Whorf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

The quote is missing a bit of context, it's specifically referring to "Globish", or International English, not English per-se, but rather the variant of "simplified" English that only use intermediate-level vocabulary and grammar because that's the common ground between most non-native speakers.

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#383

Post by jobigoud »

nextlevelwizard wrote: post #23

I can see the logic, since UK isn't part of the EU anymore, but considering over all amount of people who can speak and understand English vs France EU wide this is pretty silly show of power. After all even if EU matters were done purely in french it wouldn't be "the killer feature" to make french be taught much more in schools since english is the universal business language. And even if EU states decided that they…

> even if EU states decided that they needed to start teaching another language besides english to their kids

It's already the case that we learn another language beside English in most (all?) of the EU. Typically French, German or Spanish.

It's also an explicit goal of the EU that every citizen speak two additional languages besides their own native language.

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#384

Post by smcl »

beebeepka wrote: post #381
smcl wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The front page is covered in non-UK news though? So yes you really need to say more I think. I think we're beyond speculation that this is a story concocted by the UK media - it's picked up in France too https://www.lefigaro.fr/vox/monde/la-presidence-francaise-de...

Frankly, I have no idea what you mean. I just opened the site again and first page is 50% US news, 40% UK and 10% dedicated to whatever...

Well right now Joe Biden has just started a visit to European countries (note the main section on that front page is "Biden in Europe"). This has kicked off in the UK where one of the main points has been the post-Brexit situation with Northern Ireland. As he visits other countries I imagine they will be the focus of the "Biden In Europe" section on that frontpage. Other than those stories I can see:

- Belarusian exiles fear Lukashenko’s reach

- Macron to Johnson: Not serious to want to review Brexit’s NI protocol

- Jail term for man who slapped Emmanuel Macron in the face

- European Parliament calls for end of caged farming by 2027

- Belarusian exiles fear Lukashenko’s reach

- POLITICO Brussels Playbook: Keeping up with the Johnsons — If Biden says so — Good news for Fidesz

- 7 ways Euro 2020 could turn political

Could it be that it's just showing different based on location? I'm based in Central Europe, if you're in the UK or USA that might explain a shift in focus? I dunno, I'm guessing but either way we're way off piste here - if you guys still believe the story about France switching the main language of the EU to French during their presidency is a UK media hoax, then I guess we'll see soon enough.

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#385

Post by SllX »

WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #380
SllX wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a general principle, the capital is wherever the seat of the Executive and Legislature is based from. The European Parliament is split between two cities, spending a minority of its time in Strasbourg. You don’t have to put it on paper to call it a capital. The symbolic rhetorical cover is interesting, irrelevant, and fulfilled by the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe and other CoE institutions. More…

> As a general principle, the capital is wherever the seat of the Executive and Legislature is based from. That's what people call a de facto capital. Still the EU intentionaly has no capital in its laws. > The symbolic rhetorical cover is interesting, irrelevant It's in no way irrelevant nor a cover. It's the reason Strasbourg was selected as the seat of the parliement in the 50s. You can't discard facts because the…

> That's what people call a de facto capital.

It’s also what people just call a capital.

> It's in no way irrelevant nor a cover. It's the reason Strasbourg was selected as the seat of the parliement in the 50s.

In the 1950s.

First: the given justification for any policy decision particularly in democratic societies is always rhetorical. Rhetoric is intended to persuade. Factual accuracy is not mutually exclusive with rhetoric.

Second: It was in 1992 that the decision was made to keep the European Parliament in Strasbourg per the decision of Edinburgh European Council of 11 and 12 December 1992.[1]

Prior to this it was already located in Strasbourg, which for a time did make sense. However when the European Union chose to revisit this issue, it chose not to consolidate its institutions into one location, but to keep them spread apart and thus the European Parliament now splits its time between what are effectively two capital cities with all the additional overhead costs this incurs in the time and money of the taxpayers and the productivity of the MEPs and staff.

[1] https://www.consilium.europa.eu/media/20492/1992_december_-_... [page 47] [pdf]

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#386

Post by Bayart »

ageofzfarm wrote: post #333
Bayart wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

French writing is quite phonetic and regular, but there's an extra layer of etymological orthography which confuses people who need to learned digraphs and trigraphs. But English has them too, and there's much more irregular.

There is something contradictory and insincere about being so concerned about the eminence of French in multilingual European institutions. Multilingualism is the reality today in Europe, English being only a neutral enough language of convenience for international communication. A tiny comparison of French and English orthography seems a bad argument for promoting French in Europe.

That's the trick : English is _not_ neutral. It is perceived, with quite a bit of truth, as a vehicle for English-speaking culture (duh) and in particular American strategies and worldviews. The way specifically American social topics have exported over social networks to Europe in a linear relationship to the degree of English-speaking is quite telling in that respect. There's also a worry that it would hasten the road to the exact opposite of multi-lingualism, that is mono-culture. There's no universe in which adopting English wholeheartedly would somehow result in German, French, Spanish and others receiving the same amount of attention or respect.

It's a fruitless discussion if you pretend that all languages are equal and have the same inertia and networks effects anyway. The network effects of English are too strong, and there would be absolutely no coming back from openly using it as a Paneuropean vehicular language. It's a massive civilisational choice, not some technical detail.

As for orthography, I was merely making an observation. The formal history of both French and English are interesting. I don't think it's a valid point in favour of one language or the other.

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#387

Post by Bayart »

cinntaile wrote: post #347
Bayart wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny to see so much drab posturing about our supposed « language entitlement » while almost calling for languages to be rolled over and wiped out by English. I'm quite certain the position of French-Canadians has little to do with « entitlement », and more with how trapped they feel. Not that Anglo-Canadians would give a rats ass about the actual motives of Québec's cultural policy, as long as it can get weaponized…

This isn't about changing the native language to English, France gets to keep its French language. This is about using the language that most people understand in the entire EU. French is not that language, English is. The vote went probably like this... We can choose between French and German, cause Britain left the EU. German is disliked by more countries than French hence French won. The end result is we need more…

>This isn't about changing the native language to English, France gets to keep its French language

Ireland kept its Gaelic language. And nobody speaks it.

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#388

Post by Delk »

cinntaile wrote: post #347
Bayart wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny to see so much drab posturing about our supposed « language entitlement » while almost calling for languages to be rolled over and wiped out by English. I'm quite certain the position of French-Canadians has little to do with « entitlement », and more with how trapped they feel. Not that Anglo-Canadians would give a rats ass about the actual motives of Québec's cultural policy, as long as it can get weaponized…

This isn't about changing the native language to English, France gets to keep its French language. This is about using the language that most people understand in the entire EU. French is not that language, English is. The vote went probably like this... We can choose between French and German, cause Britain left the EU. German is disliked by more countries than French hence French won. The end result is we need more…

> German is disliked by more countries than French hence French won.

French has also been a traditional common language or diplomacy and international relations. It's probably got more inertia going for it in those circles than German would.

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#389

Post by cinntaile »

Bayart wrote: post #387
cinntaile wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about changing the native language to English, France gets to keep its French language. This is about using the language that most people understand in the entire EU. French is not that language, English is. The vote went probably like this... We can choose between French and German, cause Britain left the EU. German is disliked by more countries than French hence French won. The end result is we need more…

>This isn't about changing the native language to English, France gets to keep its French language Ireland kept its Gaelic language. And nobody speaks it.

That development took 2 centuries, that's a pretty normal evolution to be honest. Languages grow and die organically.

Also I fail to see how this would impact the usage of French in France if the official language within the EU institution is English? The EU as an institution is comprised of a couple of thousand people from all over the EU, it would have no impact whatsoever on French as a spoken language. French is no longer the lingua franca, English is and therefore it makes more sense to use English as the common language within the EU institutions. Anything else is political currency as you so aptly mentioned.

Re: French set to replace English as EU’s ‘working language’

#390

Post by cinntaile »

Delk wrote: post #388
cinntaile wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't about changing the native language to English, France gets to keep its French language. This is about using the language that most people understand in the entire EU. French is not that language, English is. The vote went probably like this... We can choose between French and German, cause Britain left the EU. German is disliked by more countries than French hence French won. The end result is we need more…

> German is disliked by more countries than French hence French won. French has also been a traditional common language or diplomacy and international relations. It's probably got more inertia going for it in those circles than German would.

That's good point, I suspect it's more a question of time before English replaces French in the UN and similar institutions though.
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