Live data from Hacker News

Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

nltimes.nl

31–40 of 211 posts

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#31
post #23
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Maybe a tiny minority Wait, what? That’s like the main reason people give when pumping it - “Bitcoin will replace fiat and it’s a good hedge against normal money.”

Personally, I don't know anyone that believes that.. I mostly see it as an adjunct - like credit cards. Another option..

What the heck does that mean? Credit cards in the US are a dollar based instrument, and they extend credit to consumers and simplify payments for merchants and consumers both.

Crypto isn’t credit. Or much of a payment means at present. So what specifically do you mean by “other option”?

This seems like a dodge. The common meme is that crypto will be valuable because it will be the money of the future and appreciate along the way.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#32
post #5

I was happily surprised to see someone proposing this, assuming it was about PoW when reading the headline... but unfortunately it's just someone trying to time the market on our behalf?! Like, should we also ban stock trading when we expect the next pandemic or .com bubble?

Try steelmanning it. Their argument is that crypto is as worthless as an investment with Bernie Madoff. Therefore, the Netherlands should exit early so its citizens aren’t left holding the bag.

That’s their claim to argue against.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#33
post #26

Bans are totally justified. They will achieve two major outcomes: 1. Tank the price, thus freeing up energy and advanced manufactured goods (which are in shortages right now) for proper productive use. 2. Significantly lessen the instances of Ransomware, since companies will have no legal mechanism to actually pay. Whether the coins continue to exist informally and are traded in some kind of primitive barter system i…

As long as we're banning things we should also ban all videogames, they are too addictive. There is nothing more precious than time and it can be spent much more productively. And alcohol for obvious reasons.

The difference being that the harm caused by Bitcoin (or at least the negative effects pointed out by GP) is externalized from the investors to society as a whole.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#34
post #19
post #6

There's plenty of valid criticisms against crypto, I feel like they've picked some of the weakest ones. > cryptocurrencies are used because people think they will one day replace traditional money Maybe a tiny minority, sounds like a strawman. > a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it Isn't fiat the same? Money only has value because people believe it has value / will have value…

> Maybe a tiny minority Wait, what? That’s like the main reason people give when pumping it - “Bitcoin will replace fiat and it’s a good hedge against normal money.”

For quite a while the prevailing sentiment has been that bitcoin is a store of value and more akin to gold not dollars.

At any rate, there's plenty of crypto with much different aims.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fiat is backed by weapons. The same weapons that defend your house from other countries and force you to give up half your salary. My main criticism to cryptocurrencies is that they're mostly unbacked. The ones that are backed by Fiat have similar problems to Fiat currency (why would I need that?), the ones that are backed by physical assets are much more interesting - but they don't seem to be the mainstream ones, p…

While in Switzerland we do have some weapons, it is not like Swiss franc is backed by our army, which is purely defensive. And, in fact, here you can pay municipal and cantonal taxes with cryptocurrencies.

I think the parent is talking about chartalism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartalism), which is essentially the idea that fiat currencies derive their value from the fact that taxes must be paid in them.

A sort of "just so" story about this would go something like (with much credit to David Graeber):

"Way back when, some Assyrian king got the great idea to, instead of giving their soldiers food and drink, give their soldiers tokens. They would then demand a certain number of those tokens per head from their subjects. Suddenly the tokens have value, and the subjects are put to work selling goods and services to the army."

I'm not an expert on this theory, but there are potential oddities, similar to your points:

* This would suggest the value of the currency is closely tied to the total taxation. (Why, for example, is the Swiss Franc highly valued by investors outside of Switzerland?) I guess you could validate or invalidate this by looking at whether the ratio of M2 to annual tax revenue is somewhat fixed (across currencies) or quite fluid?

* This fails to explain currencies which retain value after they are no longer in use by a central government (as with the Somali shilling, as noted in the Wikipedia article) or, indeed, Bitcoin.

Personally, my sense is that chartalism is correct as an explanation for one way to bootstrap a currency, but clearly (as Bitcoin shows) is not the only way to bootstrap a currency, and once you create a level of reliable demand, you no longer need it (hence the Somali shilling or, perhaps, the high valuation of the CHF outside of Swiss taxpayers).

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#37
post #3
post #2

Nobel laureate Robert Shiller calls bitcoin a 'contagious narrative' Anyone else find articles like these hard to take seriously?

> Nobel laureate... Maybe we should start taking reputable people like this more seriously.

The "Sveriges Riksbank Prize in Economic Sciences in Memory of Alfred Nobel" is not a Nobel Prize.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Memorial_Prize_in_Econom...

As the name implies, it is a prize created in "honor of" Nobel by the Swedish central bank. As such, there is an inherent ideological bias. Many would dispute the claim that it is "reputable".

Shiller is famous for suggesting that consumers don't actually know what is good for them, while the state supposedly has better information about appropriate consumption habits. He also misappropriated the word "Phishing" in this context.

https://cdn.mises.org/Review%20Essay%20Phishing%20for%20Phoo...

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#38
post #9
post #6

There's plenty of valid criticisms against crypto, I feel like they've picked some of the weakest ones. > cryptocurrencies are used because people think they will one day replace traditional money Maybe a tiny minority, sounds like a strawman. > a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it Isn't fiat the same? Money only has value because people believe it has value / will have value…

> Maybe a tiny minority, sounds like a strawman. I don't think so, i believe many people think that a private and decentralized solution will replace traditional money. That just isn't an argument against it. If anything, it's an argument FOR cryptocurrencies. > Isn't fiat the same? haha yes.

No, fiat is backed by economies.

In case of the USD, it's the biggest economy there is.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#39
post #2

Nobel laureate Robert Shiller calls bitcoin a 'contagious narrative' Anyone else find articles like these hard to take seriously?

I usually stop reading when people start throwing around "big" names in an argumentativw essay. This time I disagreed so heartily that I finished reading.

Are you convincing me of a nobel laureates opinion, or are you convincing me that bitcoin is bad for The dutch economy.

I think he's just an integrated buerocrat trying to make his way in the world.

The comments said enough about this.

Re: Netherlands must ban cryptocurrencies immediately: CPB head

#40
post #11
post #7

>"Cryptocurrencies are essentially neither money nor a financial product, but an example of what Nobel laureate Robert Shiller calls a 'contagious narrative': a contagious story in which people believe because other people believe in it." How is this different from money or the financial markets? Why do those continue to exist if not for the belief we collectively have in them? And why is that only a problem for bitc…

> How is this different from money or the financial markets? A big difference is that the sovereign requires you to pay taxes in a given currency at the threat of punishment. So long as everyone needs to pay the taxman, the currency that the tax man accepts is gonna have at least some value.

They can make this difference disappear by accepting bitcoin then.
Post reply on HN