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Why Can’t I Sleep?

ucsf.edu

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Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#91
I have yet to meet someone who complains about insomnia who actually accurately follows all of the advice.

Notably usually absent or poorly followed: - waking up early, at the exact same time, every day. - as SOON as you get up, you need to eat a heavy breakfast of fats and protiens with as few carbs as possible. Some people think they are special snowflakes who "have never been able to eat in the morning", you need to practice it and get in the habit then you will be able to. - ACTUAL psychological separation of bed, and screen areas. - not sleeping in the same bed as someone else to those it applies to - keeping your room around 20 degrees, if you cant decide, colder is the preference for sleep as we did not evolve with masses of blankets and insulation. - understanding and handling rumination, more complex but if you handle tasks in a way that leaves you with unresolved threads all the time, you will ponder on them endlessly. This must be handled sensibly.

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only recommend book by Matthew Walker 'Why we sleep - The new science of sleep and dreams'

I really wanted to love this book, and I was if anything biased heavily towards believing it. I read it cover to cover in less than a week. Sadly, I found that book made my sleep worse. (A quick Google will show I'm not alone). Also there is a lot of debate around the quality of the research underpinning the book, this is the most prominent article: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ Also I really do not love his…

Walker responded to some of his critics here:

https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-...

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#93
post #39
post #31

Always the same old advise. Sleep hygiene, exercise, caffeine. Anyone with chronic insomnia can tell you none of that really works. For me it's always been impossible to fall into a regular day/night routine, it's actually whenever I try to force it I'm starting to rapidly feel worse. So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise. It's fine and I feel good, the real problem t…

Yea it’s really frustrating how everyone just assumes you are doing something basic wrong, as if you haven’t spent years on all the low hanging fruit. My body/brain simply will not allow me to sleep longer than 6.5 hours and that is often really pushing it. I have absolutely no signs of sleep deprivation. No daytime sleepiness. Every article loves to tell me how horrible it is for me, but there are no symptoms and no…

There is a genetic mutation that a small minority carry that allows them to sleep less (6.2 hrs average). You simply may be one of those people.

Sleep duration is just a single metric; apnea, REM+NREM3 duration etc. all matter. You may be getting as much REM+NREM3 in 6.5 as someone gets in 8... and if you don't have apnea, you might get WAY more actual sleep than most people.

I went through a period where I believed my body would only accommodate a certain amount of sleep. Once I stopped caring about sleep duration... that duration slowly increased to eventually revert to 'normal'.

The key is to just _stop_caring_ about it. Do everything right, and let your body/mind handle the rest. It doesn't happen overnight.

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#95
post #31

Always the same old advise. Sleep hygiene, exercise, caffeine. Anyone with chronic insomnia can tell you none of that really works. For me it's always been impossible to fall into a regular day/night routine, it's actually whenever I try to force it I'm starting to rapidly feel worse. So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise. It's fine and I feel good, the real problem t…

> So the solution has been to just flow with it, I sleep when I can, stay awake otherwise.

I did this for years. Felt great for a while, then starting having noticeable impacts on my ability to focus, my mood, and my physical health.

The same old advice took close to 6 months to really start helping me. It was an absolute grind to stick to a wake + bedtime routine. The discipline it takes is absolutely insane (weekends were the hardest). I stopped and started over and over and over again, but eventually stuck to it.

Low/medium dose ambien once or twice a week was the the thing that really got me into the habit/routine. Medication is not a long term fix (especially this stuff), but this was enough to get me through the fitful nights for a few months--it stopped me from getting out bed and breaking the routine.

Anecdote, so as usual, ymmv.

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#96
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you say you cannot sleep, do you mean you didn't fall asleep for full 3 weeks a single time?

I end up lying awake until 4 am and then have some very very light sleep for about and hour or two. My Garmin shows me that I get no deep sleep at all.

If it came on sudden I would say look for changes in your direct environment. Something dramatic? Did you maybe hurt yourself? Did you start eating a new food? Someone pop back up in your life that you thought was gone? That sort of thing. If you can not bisect the issue a sleep study would be better. Medication may help but it may mask the underlying issue.

For me it was more of a realization it was my diet. I changed my diet to remove some particular types of foods and now I sleep good. If I eat those foods I sleep like crap. Pop a tums and I am good (it is the upset stomach waking me randomly, so the bad sleep). Everyone has different reasons why. But the top ones are typically stress, injury, or food are a good place to start.

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#97

Since about three weeks ago I cannot sleep. It’s very strange. I know the feeling of anxiety and how it leads to not sleeping, it’s something I’ve had in the past at very stressful jobs. I’ve learned techniques to deal with this, like breathing and mindfulness. But right now this feels different. I’m tired, I’m lying in bed, and I don’t have any stressful thoughts. Yet somehow I just don’t fall asleep. It feels like…

It sounds a bit like the way mild depression affected my sleep during covid. I wasn't obviously depressed--still exercised, did my job, etc--but my doctor said that may be a cause of my sleep issues. He suggested spending more time outside, more time with friends (outside), etc, etc and it did the trick.

Try the benzos or a mild andidepressent (discuss with your doctor of course). Do not take more than the prescribed dose (maybe even start with half of it). The important thing is to use it along with a solid bedtime routine. Same time, lights out, no TV, etc. I had a bad experience with it when trying to use it as a replacement for a bedtime routine, but its been wonderful in addition to a routine when I needed the help.

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#98
post #91

I have yet to meet someone who complains about insomnia who actually accurately follows all of the advice. Notably usually absent or poorly followed: - waking up early, at the exact same time, every day. - as SOON as you get up, you need to eat a heavy breakfast of fats and protiens with as few carbs as possible. Some people think they are special snowflakes who "have never been able to eat in the morning", you need…

I don't know anyone without insomnia who does all that.

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#99

Since about three weeks ago I cannot sleep. It’s very strange. I know the feeling of anxiety and how it leads to not sleeping, it’s something I’ve had in the past at very stressful jobs. I’ve learned techniques to deal with this, like breathing and mindfulness. But right now this feels different. I’m tired, I’m lying in bed, and I don’t have any stressful thoughts. Yet somehow I just don’t fall asleep. It feels like…

Yes, I went from somewhat normal sleep to about a month averaging 3.5 hrs. That average was composed of days of no sleep, followed by a crash. Rinse and repeate. My GP gave me a benzo, Lunesta and some other new worthless z-drug (orexin receptor antagonist). None of it worked.

GPs & sleep medicine physicians are worthless for insomnia issues. You need to see a psychiatrist. Sleep issues are a huge component to mental health treatment, so they have much better insights. And since you've correctly identified that anxiety is related to sleep loss, psychiatric help is doubly useful.

Talk to a psychiatrist about low dose trazodone, mirtazapine or seroquel. They have relatively good safety profiles and are not habit forming like benzodiazepines. They also act like a safety blanket; I know that if I'm having trouble sleeping they will knock me out and right the ship. That is super helpful at releasing the anxiety around 'I can't sleep'.

And of course, if you have other stressful things in your life, you need to focus on working them out. Stress doesn't just 'release itself' because we are going to bed. Having a high base level of stress throughout the day makes sleep difficult for _everyone_.

Re: Why Can’t I Sleep?

#100
post #91

I have yet to meet someone who complains about insomnia who actually accurately follows all of the advice. Notably usually absent or poorly followed: - waking up early, at the exact same time, every day. - as SOON as you get up, you need to eat a heavy breakfast of fats and protiens with as few carbs as possible. Some people think they are special snowflakes who "have never been able to eat in the morning", you need…

I am someone who had suffered with insomnia for decades and mostly resolved it in the past few years. I'm not sure why you think eating in the morning is necessary for getting a good sleep - I rarely eat breakfast and usually sleep great these days. The thing that helped me was going to a therapist and doing CBT-I. Probably the top three things for me were just getting out of bed if I couldn't sleep, forcing myself to exercise even when I am completely exhausted and learning to be okay with sleeping poorly. Putting a lot of pressure on yourself to sleep well and thinking about it all the time can for some people like myself, lead to poor sleep. That being said, this is what worked for me and I would encourage anyone with insomnia to try CBT-I - it may sound dumb to some people with loads of advice you can find on the internet with respect to getting good sleep, but having someone tell you what to do and then holding you accountable can help a lot when trying to fix a difficult problem like insomnia.
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