Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin • Hacker News Board

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#111

Post by mumblemumble » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

torcete wrote: post #101

The official narrative in the UK is "don't invest your money in cryptos, you are going to lose it all". However, if you happen to have cryptos you must declare them! I wonder if the dutch government bans Bitcoin, that means that there is no need to declare anything. After all, it doesn't fulfill any function as money, means of payment or store of value.

I think technically the government probably does still want you to openly confess your crimes, financial or otherwise.

That doesn't mean anyone expects it to actually happen, of course.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#112

Post by swebs » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

Shadonototro wrote: post #48

bitcoins show the nasty nature of the people all about profits, nobody care about solving problems, they just want the price to grow to make profit from their investment

>nobody care about solving problems

It solves the problem of corporate censorship. Visa for example is notorious for refusing to do business with people they don't like (porn companies, 4chan, etc). If the US government wants more people to use the dollar and less to use Bitcoin, they can come out with a public, first-amendment-protected payment system.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#113

Post by adwi » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:35 PM UTC

Re the carbon footprint argument with Bitcoin:

I’m curious how the energy use of just a top 5 retail bank compares to Bitcoin.

Chase [0], for instance, has over 5,000 retail locations and 16,000 ATMs. And the servers, and call centers/corporate offices to support 200,000 employees. And the cars they drive back and forth to those offices, and the construction of new ones, and flights (some private), etc etc.

How much energy does that use—let alone the physical resources and their attendant carbon and energy use?

Then you have another 4,500 branches from Bank of America, 7200 for Wells, etc. And that’s just the US.

Not equivocating, nor arguing that Bitcoin could replace all their functions, but I think there might be more nuance to the energy argument, especially when at least other crypto currencies have an off ramp with their energy use via proof of stake.

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_Bank

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#114

Post by nathias » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

throwaaskjdfh wrote: post #83

nathias wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea its really great to be prosecuted for no reason except the whims of the powerful, we should really all be in favor of making everything illegal by default.

No, being prosecuted at the whim of the powerful is horrible, but Bitcoin claims to be a kind of technological "escape hatch" from this kind of abuse. The sooner we find out that it isn't an escape hatch, the better. We can then return to social and political hard work of curbing the powerful, instead of pretending we can just take our cryptocurrencies and escape.

I know you are arguing in bad faith, but immutability of monetary policy, ability to transact online outside of influence of MasterCard and Visa is something completely other than being resistant to its users being persecuted.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#115

Post by keymone » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

tromp wrote: post #105

keymone wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero carbon footprint and zero carbon in transaction costs. You simply don’t understand what is that energy used for. It’s definitely not for processing transactions.

It will be in a few decades when Bitcoin can no longer rely on the ever dwindling block subsidy to provide enough security. Then it will be predominantly the transaction fees that keep bitcoin secure.

Block subsidy doesn’t provide any security, if you made a fork of bitcoin that paid 100 times the subsidy of the original, your fork wouldn’t be any more secure. Much less secure in fact.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#116

Post by ben_w » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

redorb wrote: post #85

nathias wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yea its really great to be prosecuted for no reason except the whims of the powerful, we should really all be in favor of making everything illegal by default.

How was ransomware's ransom paid before crypto?

Judging by the Wikipedia page, pre-pay e-cash cards.

But as police and criminals are in a constant arms race of what does and doesn’t work, that’s a bit like asking “how did we win wars before atomic bombs?” in a discussion about a country proposing to ban nuclear bombs.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#117

Post by cassianoleal » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #89

cassianoleal wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does the Euro, which is used in his country, and so was the Dutch Guild, the one that came before. So does any other currency in use in the world. > Fiat money does not have intrinsic value and does not have use value. It has value only because a government maintains its value, or because parties engaging in exchange agree on its value. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

Yeah let's swap a currency backed by 27 rich countries with something created by a bunch of sociopath tech douchebags.

Yeah let's pretend the other person said something that we want to argue about and then respond to that pretence.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#118

Post by throwawayffffas » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:37 PM UTC

Tade0 wrote: post #65

Putting aside for a moment whether this will actually happen, I would like to ask: how? How do you effectively ban circulation of certain types of information? The entertainment industry didn't manage to achieve this over the last 20 years.

Ban exchanges from operating in Netherlands. Ban merchants in the Netherlands from accepting cryptocurrencies. Ban the exchange of cryptocurrencies by the public. Monitor the cryptocurrencies networks and have ISPs block access to all IPs running cryptocurrency nodes. Ban cryptocurrency mining. Ban services that offer online wallets. Block links to cryptocurrency software.

The entertainment industry has been unlucky that it hasn't managed to make the use of torrent illegal. They have to monitor the trackers and figure out who is sharing their copyrighted works and then send threatening emails and hope someone will comply. Instead since they would be banning cryptocurrencies completely they would be able to straight up block connections to cryptocurrency nodes.

You could still use a vpn to use cryptocurrencies, but still buying cryptocurrencies with money would be difficult enough to dissuade most people from doing so.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#119

Post by dcolkitt » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

toshk wrote: post #53

cassianoleal wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So does the Euro, which is used in his country, and so was the Dutch Guild, the one that came before. So does any other currency in use in the world. > Fiat money does not have intrinsic value and does not have use value. It has value only because a government maintains its value, or because parties engaging in exchange agree on its value. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

Being backed by a government, or multiple governments, with an army and lots of financial tools is a very real thing.

I agree that being backed by a government carries weight. Largely because tax liabilities are denominated in the home currency, which creates a persistent demand for the currency.

But it's silly when people bring up the army or military when it comes to the USD or other fiat currencies. As if the only thing keeping the dollar valuable are carrier strike groups threatening people around the world. If military spending was cut in half, I guarantee you the dollar would be just as valuable.

China, Russia and North Korea all have formidable militaries. Their currencies carry very little weight outside their borders. In contrast the Swiss Franc, Swedish Krona and New Zealand Dollar are all considered ultra-hard currencies despite those countries having little to no ability to project force around the globe.

Re: Dutch official calls for complete ban on Bitcoin

#120

Post by emn13 » Fri, Jun 11, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

Growling_owl wrote: post #97

Nobody, not even Biden has the political goodwill to make Bitcoin illegal and enrage so many constituents (aka lost votes) The only ones who maybe can do it are Xi and Putin, and the latter seems more pro than against because everything which goes against the dollar is Putin's friend. Xi is also on and off again with Bitcoin but every day which goes by in which he is not decisive is a day in favor of Bitcoin. You are…

Even if the people you label modern day robinhoods (but that take money away from people who work and make sacrifices to get ahead in life and redistribute it to themselves, which is not quite the typical robinhood version) really are as self-serving as you suggest - do you really think that making bitcoint would enrage so many constituents? How many people do you think actually hold bitcoin?

https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/how-many-bitcoin-users/ estimates there are around 15.3 million people in north america, and of those how many actually care deeply about this issue? Additionally, realize that how much this hurts dramatically depends on how such a ban were to come into force.

I mean - I don't think there's a chance in hell Biden will ban bitcoins, but rather because it's just not a priority, not because this is electoral suicide.