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What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

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Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#681

The car refused to drive autonomously. It said, “$8.50, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the car. Again he tried the self-driving knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the car said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this VW…

Reminds me of "Unauthorized Bread" by Cory Doctorow https://craphound.com/unauthorized-bread/

people have noticed the connections between unauthorized bread and ubik in the past - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25010352

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#682
post #193

I already pay almost $20 per day for public transportation. Of course I would switch to robotaxis for $8.50/h. Door to door, guaranteed seat, privacy, isolation from body odors & food smells, noise, loud phone conversations, screaming kids, gossiping seniors, beggars, crazies, drunks, street musicians, touching arms & thighs, ads (maybe), conductors, jehovah's witnesses, campaigners and promoters. No more waiting in…

> I already pay almost $20 per day for public transportation. You may be an outlier. Usually people buy monthly passes for 150-200 dollars. It gets expensive when you have to commute from another town though, like taking the GO Train in Toronto. https://www.ttc.ca/Fares_and_passes/PRESTO/Monthly_Pass_FAQ.... https://www.gotransit.com/en/trip-planning/presto/fare-disco...

CHF 545/month (= ~$600/month = ~$20/day): 1st class national travel card in Switzerland. I chose this instead of owning a car.

https://www.sbb.ch/en/travelcards-and-tickets/railpasses/ga/... (see monthly prices).

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same argument that BMW made, and it's just as faulty here. They said that instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers - isn't that great??? I hate this argument with a burning passion though, it's turning ownership into subscription only to extr…

>> They said that instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers - isn't that great? So what exactly is the problem here? Isn't having the choice between several options a good thing from consumer point of view? Isn't extracting more money a whole point of…

>>So what exactly is the problem here?

I suppose I have an ideological problem with cars being sold this way. I see them as something that you own entirely once you paid for them. The idea that the car physically has heated seats installed but you can't switch them on without paying a fee to BMW is literally offensive to me on some higher level.

I don't know how to explain this better, I just don't want to live in a world where we buy things but never actualy own them. Yes, I am aware that computers and their software has operated like this for a long time now - doesn't mean that I accept this in cars.

>>Isn't having the choice between several options a good thing from consumer point of view?

To use another example - imagine if property developers built only 6-bed houses to streamline their construction process, but 4 out of these bedrooms were walled up and inaccessible by default. But hey, don't worry, you can pay an annual fee to the developer to unlock these bedrooms! Surely that's great for customers, because you only pay for what you need. Kid moved out to college and you no longer need their bedroom? Stop paying the extra fee, some guys will come over and brick up the door again. Isn't consumer choice great?

My point is - consumer choice isn't always the best outcome for everyone, including consumers. And I believe this is a false choice anyway, because BMW isn't aiming to offer this as a $500 one-time unlock OR $100 annual fee - it's just the annual subscription. Just like you can't just buy a standalone copy of Photoshop anymore, it's been replaced with a subscription model entirely.

>>Isn't extracting more money a whole point of company to exist?

I mean, it can be, but in a capitalist competitive market hopefully there will be competition that doesn't do that - and if it actively turns people away from buying BMW products then this whole idea fails at its intended purpose - can't extract more money from your customers if people don't become your customers in the first place.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#684
post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he doesn’t lose anything, but has the possibility of gaining something.

He's definitely losing something. Property taxes are based on area and number of rooms. They could have found a tenant looking for the right number of rooms in their budget.

Or he advertised 1, 2, and 3 BR and took the first that came along.

You are assuming demand is equal for all of those. It might be in some places, but not others.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#685
post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla can already generate a pretty good "lidar point cloud" out of just camera input. But we'll see.

One issue with Tesla's approach is that they do not have enough cameras to do this at every angle. Its going to be especially tough in parking lots, as they have very poor coverage of the road directly beneath them. Mobileye's camera based point cloud approach appears to be much more robust.

Why would the car need to see the road directly beneath while parking? Because of positional error (drift) or what? It should know the painted markings from earlier frames.

Good point though. I'd like Tesla to add more cameras.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no indication that 31 minutes is per day, so I'd assume it's one way.

But then the calculation on a yearly basis doesn't make sense, it'd have to be doubled.

hyperhopper wrote "* 2 commutes a day".

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#687
post #503

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A sensible analogue would be something like aircraft software Does automobile software development have the level of oversight that aircraft development has in terms of regulation and approval for use? I know the NHTSA approves safety with crash tests (and are currently working on AV standards) but I'm not sure it's an equivalent to what the FAA currently does. Not to say they won't be equivalent in the future, but…

> Does automobile software development have the level of oversight that aircraft development has in terms of regulation and approval for use? Nothing in my comment implied this, and I don't disagree that it doesn't. The question is immaterial to the specific topic of discussion: the comparison of server uptime to human-driver reliability as an indicator of the feasibility of functional AV software.

The tone of your response seems to imply I’ve was attacking your position, but that wasn’t my intent.

I am legitimately asking how much parity there is regarding oversight regulation between flight and autonomous software, which would help make your point clearer since it has a direct relationship to reliability.

However, I do think it’s relevant to the point. If you are making an analogy about reliability but one is legally forced to demonstrate reliability while the other is not, does that comparison really make sense with that additional context? While I've worked in the aerospace software domain, I don't know to what standard AV is held which is why I was asking.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#688
post #225

> In a swipe at Tesla, he said that by charging hourly fees, VW would make autonomous driving more accessible than “a car with a five-digit surcharge.” This is completely disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst. This is a perfect example of the boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness [1]. This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over…

Tesla charges $10k for not really self driving, with the promise that it will improve, and you should buy it now, because the price will increase in the future. I.e. they make you pay for something you don't have, with no guarantee that you will have it later. If it isn't a money grab, I don't know what is. And of course you can take a loan on that, so it isn't an upfront cost either. At least, with VW system, you pa…

Tesla auto pilot is like vaporware: selling software that may never be released, as requires a break through in Aai capabilities.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#689
post #631

I'll never understand why we're hell-bent on making sure people are driving around in cars. Instead of solving the problem of commuting by not having cars and by building better, we're just making commuting better and more optimized. It's so stupid. We should be making it so that you don't have to commute, not that you can do more work while you commute or w/e.

Autonomous driving is an extremely difficult problem, but it pales in comparison to the challenge of forcing a cultural shift away from driving and reimagining/rebuilding so many cities. Most Americans won't even entertain the thought of giving up their car even if alternative modes of transport make more sense.

Does it pale in comparison? We already have buses and trains. We don't have any auto pilot driving better than a drunk guy.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it would take me quite a few years to rack up 53000 miles so I'll take that 10k and invest it, thank you, and probably will still be ahead after 10 years

Why not avoid a car all together, and invest the ~$50,000 then? Even though VW's solution may be cheaper for many, the way it's being portrayed feels more scammy.

Because where I live the weather is awful for half the year and a car is the only reasonable way to get around.
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