Live data from Hacker News

CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

netherlandsnewslive.com

91–100 of 210 posts

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#91
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, please don't tax something because it is wasteful or not, but tax something based on how much resources it uses. In fact, tax the resource usage not the activity. Even an extremely efficient car uses a ton of energy to move around. New cars often have engines in the multiple hundred kW range, which is insane compared to any other appliance you own. If fossil fuels were taxed properly, that would discourage using/…

> No, please don't tax something because it is wasteful or not, but tax something based on how much resources it uses. "Wasteful" = "using more resources than it genuinely needs". We're saying very, very similar things here. I don't find the difference between them significant enough to be worth arguing about honestly. I'm just suggesting an alternative that I think might be more viable, but if we go with your propos…

> "using more resources than it genuinely needs"

Are you going to create a commission which decides what a "genuine resource usage" is?

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#92
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cryptocurrency is no the enabler of ransomware. Ransomware was prevalent before cryptocurrencies. This meme really needs to die. It's driving me more and more insane every time I read it. Ransomware may have existed previously but it was nowhere nearly as prevalent before cryptocurrencies came around. It is not a mere coincidence of the cosmos that almost every single darn time (I think literally 98% of the time, a…

I've been in security for ages, ransomware was there but has evolved since then. Two other reasons can explain the increase in ransomware, that merely correlate with the rise of cryptocurrencies: 1) The innovation of encrypting files hadn't occurred to ransomware operators yet. 2) The value of computer systems, and data, itself increased. Massively increasing the likelihood of victims paying the ransom. Before crypto…

> and the ransom only payable over WU, then they would have done that instead.

As if WU and crypto don't have very different KYC requirements (as in - none for crypto)

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#93
post #64
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, pyramid games are routinely banned. There are good arguments to be made that Bitcoin is a pyramid game much more than a "asset class in a bubble".

I'm only talking about Pieter Hasekamp's arguments, which don't seem to be good ones. If he wants to argue that Bitcoin is a pyramid game, that's a different argument, but I can't see many people taking him seriously. Pieter's arguments are along the lines of a "Think of the Children"[1] style argument, or an appeal to consequences[2]. "We must ban cryptocurrency because if we don't, people might lose their money!" […

Well if they ban it we know for sure people will loose money.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No, please don't tax something because it is wasteful or not, but tax something based on how much resources it uses. "Wasteful" = "using more resources than it genuinely needs". We're saying very, very similar things here. I don't find the difference between them significant enough to be worth arguing about honestly. I'm just suggesting an alternative that I think might be more viable, but if we go with your propos…

> "using more resources than it genuinely needs" Are you going to create a commission which decides what a "genuine resource usage" is?

> Are you going to create a commission which decides what a "genuine resource usage" is?

Uhm... if it's necessary, sure? I already suggested a starting point: the current state-of-the-art provides a baseline to compare against. If we need a commission to gauge this, then sure, how about have an agency like the EPA or DoE figure it out. We can even give a good name to products that meet high energy-efficiency standards... like, I don't know, maybe "Energy Star"?

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#95
post #8

Why should others decide if I can run useless hashing functions on my computer? Price the electricity accordingly, and make PoW impossible. Cryptocurrency is no the enabler of ransomware. Ransomware was prevalent before cryptocurrencies. The real enablers of ransomware are the countries that shelter the R10 groups, raking in millions. There's a reason some ransomware doesn't run when your system has a Russian languag…

I agree with you here. I don't love PoW but I also see issues with PoS.

I am a single computer miner but I only ever turn on my miner if I am net exporting back to the grid (solar).

Main reason here is that the money I get from the grid is ~25% what I pay on the way down and through mining its anywhere from 500-1200% for the amount of energy I am using.

If my energy company paid me more or there was infrastructure for me to sell my excess to my neighbours (such things exists in the world) then that would be appealing to me.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#96
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, by "ability to print money and steal" you mean having a central bank and levying taxes? You're making a moral argument against the idea of government controlled currency in general, yes? Can you clarify why you think controlled currencies are morally bad and how cryptocurrencies are better? I'd love to hear a less abstract argument than "more freedom". EDIT: I assume downvotes mean there are people…

not OP. But the less-buzzwordy argument is this: the existence of money itself isn't the problem. The problem is that the modern monetary system is built on inflation and supermassive debt, and this combination has a bunch of highly negative outcomes: -it systematically expropriates poor people. Inflation will make sure your money is worth gradually less, so the only option to save it is though real estate and stocks…

Oh, I'm fully aware of the problems with our current economic system. I just don't see how toppling fiat currencies and returning to representative (or even commodity) currencies solves any of the problems. Especially if the process involves the full destruction of the state while maintaining our current notion of property.

Property only exists insofar as people are able to enforce their claims of it. Under the dominant economic system property rights are enforced by the state via the police and prison system. Without the state, you need to rely on the community to assist you in enforcing your claims. If you want to maintain an imbalance that they might not be willing to tolerate, you'll need a private army (i.e. share some of your property with people willing to protect you in return).

If you hold little to no property, you fully depend on others' willingness to share their property with you or you'll literally die (because even foraging would require accessing someone else's property if they have claims on the territory).

So unless those holding the most property (i.e. the extremely rich) either fail to secure their continued property claims (e.g. by having their army turn against them) or feel extremely charitable for no practical benefit to themselves, you still end up with extreme poverty and extreme wealth.

And honestly, once you have people like Jeff Bezos raising armies to assert their claims on a significant fraction of global wealth directly, you might as well call their claims states because this just feudalism without the mythology of the divine right of kings (yet).

Wealth inequality may be in part driven by fiat currency. But wealth inequality is an inevitable consequence of our understanding of property rights (i.e. enclosure and the commodification of essential life necessities up to and including access to drinkable water).

Abolishing fiat currencies and existing states may create a free market, but it will not abolish or even improve poverty. You can argue that a freer market is better (but again, this needs a better explanation than "more freedom better") but it does not logically follow that a freer market reduces poverty and wealth inequality (ironically most statistics claiming global poverty is massively decreasing do not account for inflation and thus do not demonstrate an actual increase in relative purchasing power).

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#97
post #64
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, pyramid games are routinely banned. There are good arguments to be made that Bitcoin is a pyramid game much more than a "asset class in a bubble".

I'm only talking about Pieter Hasekamp's arguments, which don't seem to be good ones. If he wants to argue that Bitcoin is a pyramid game, that's a different argument, but I can't see many people taking him seriously. Pieter's arguments are along the lines of a "Think of the Children"[1] style argument, or an appeal to consequences[2]. "We must ban cryptocurrency because if we don't, people might lose their money!" […

Isn't he just trying to call it a pyramid game without actually calling it a pyramid game? (or ponzi scheme, etc etc same same). I don't know the nuances of his position but maybe him calling it what it is (ie a scam) can get them into all kinds of legal trouble if they don't have hard proof. And because the fraudsters are as distributed as the ledger, it's hard to come by hard proof.

I mean, I think that Jack Dorsey is banking hard on bitcoin because he knows he's near the top of the pyramid and he wants as many fools as possible beneath him, but there's absolutely no way to prove that he's not just a soft idiot.

Just guessing though, all I mean is "if we don't, people might lose their money!" would have applied to Bernie Madoff too.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#98
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not OP. But the less-buzzwordy argument is this: the existence of money itself isn't the problem. The problem is that the modern monetary system is built on inflation and supermassive debt, and this combination has a bunch of highly negative outcomes: -it systematically expropriates poor people. Inflation will make sure your money is worth gradually less, so the only option to save it is though real estate and stocks…

Oh, I'm fully aware of the problems with our current economic system. I just don't see how toppling fiat currencies and returning to representative (or even commodity) currencies solves any of the problems. Especially if the process involves the full destruction of the state while maintaining our current notion of property. Property only exists insofar as people are able to enforce their claims of it. Under the domin…

you're mistaking me for a libertarian. Which is understandable, because you run into so many of those in the bitcoin space, so no hard feeling! :D They irritate me as well.

The problem with the current system is obviously not that it's not "free market" enough. I fully agree with you on property. And fiat currencies are fine with me in principle, the structural underpinnings of our current ones are the horrid part, and the power structures this underpins.

What I try to communicate is that bitcoin can also be a tech for leftist hope, because it uses the greed of the free market people to strengthen something that actually undermines the current corporatist capture of the state, and does so massively. It's decentralized and a real threat to the banking system and its wealth extortion. It's inclusive, as its permissionless nature will bank anyone with a phone. It also undermines US hegemony, as the US control over the banking system through SWIFT allows it to engage in economic warfare against everyone it doesn't like. The fact that bitcoin is an option for sanctioned countries is a medal for it in my book. And I know that's utopian and the US will try to find a way to kill it before it can actually do any f these things, but that's exactly the reason why people with critical attitudes to corporatism and US hegemony should help it along, not participate in the moral panics against it.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#99
post #4

Everyone needs to ban Bitcoin... and likely other cryptocurrencies. Not only are they by far the biggest enablers of ransomware (which we're supposedly taking seriously now), but Bitcoin emissions alone could push global warming above 2°C. [1] Bitcoin already consumes 0.55% of energy produced globally. [2] [1] https://www.nature.com/articles/s41558-018-0321-8 [2] https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-a…

Bitcoin is the biggest enabler of cheap renewable energy, gtfo with the list about bitcoin causing global warming. It is getting ridiculous.

Pollution causes fucking global warming, ships, cars industry concrete. This idiotic scapegoat of BTC is killing the planet is akin to the crying Indian campaign.

Its a misdirection to avoid talking about real causes and solutions to global warming.

Re: CPB director: The Netherlands must ban Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies

#100
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need to ban all proof-of-work and generally all resource intensive cryptocurrencies.

One energy-efficient approach is the one used by the Pi network: - https://minepi.com/ The whitepaper is pretty detailed about how they avoid the proof of work and the energy waste associated: - https://minepi.com/white-paper If cryptos really make it in their ideological goal of a truly free capitalistic society, something like Pi which can be mined by everyone will have to win out over Bitcoin which can be "produce…

Based on some quick reading, Pi is a scam. There is no blockchain or 'mining' happening, they instead get you to watch ads on your phone every so often.

There are real, blockchain-based cryptocurrencies which are much more energy efficient than proof of work. Cardano currently being the biggest one by market cap. It's still a relatively 'new' space, but I hate seeing it crowded by so many scam products.

Post reply on HN