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Privacy Analysis of FLoC

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Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#121

Post by jedberg »

HWR_14 wrote: post #119
jedberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like personalized ads. If I have to suffer with ads to support the websites I like, I'd rather have them personalized. Instagram is really good at this -- I probably click on at least 1/4 of the ads I get, and have definitely made purchases based on Instagram ads. So as a user, the benefit would be better ads. Honestly I'll probably leave FLOC on if given the option (although I use Firefox and Safari, and as far as…

> I probably click on at least 1/4 of the ads I get, and have definitely made purchases based on Instagram ads. In an anonymized (or not) way, can you tell me something you found via an Instagram ad that you were not aware existed and then purchased?

Copying from my comment above, here are some examples of things I've bought. I like trying out new things because I can afford it, but I don't always have time to go out and look for them.

So examples of things that I've bought from Instagram ads:

The comma2 (autopilot for my Honda van). I knew OpenPilot existed, but until I saw that ad, I didn't know there was a product I could buy with it already installed. I liked the idea but didn't have time to get it all set up on my own. The existence of a commercial product vastly improved my life. I've already used it for over 1000 miles of self driving in just a couple weeks. It's a night and day difference when driving. I suppose I would have eventually heard about the product, but I'm glad I heard about it when I did.

The most recent Pride lego set. I would have never known it existed, but I'm glad I know now, because I want to give my kids something fun to build that sparks a conversation about Pride and what it means and why it's important.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#122

Post by HWR_14 »

smoldesu wrote: post #51
throwaway2048 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is the only place on the internet I've seen people expound their love for personalized advertising.

It's more of a hierarchy, to me. I prefer no ads, but I'd rather have personalized ones than the raunchy shlock they serve you if you're a "nobody".

Why not install an ad blocker and have no ads then?

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#123

Post by reissbaker »

saurik wrote: post #54
jedberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like personalized ads. If I have to suffer with ads to support the websites I like, I'd rather have them personalized. Instagram is really good at this -- I probably click on at least 1/4 of the ads I get, and have definitely made purchases based on Instagram ads. So as a user, the benefit would be better ads. Honestly I'll probably leave FLOC on if given the option (although I use Firefox and Safari, and as far as…

FWIW, I am "personally" sick of the Internet reminding me of the thing I already bought yesterday, along with doubling down on ads for things I only engage with because I want to show my friends how stupid the ad/product is, which seems to be the state of the art of "personalized" Internet ads. I would honestly get more value--if I am forced to see ads--out of less personalized ads. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KbKd…

If FLoC ends up working — right now it seems to have several deficiencies — that kind of personalized tracking would presumably stop. If your individual purchases can't be linked to your cohort group, you'd only get the interest-based cohort ads, not the follow-you-around-forever-with-your-existing-purchases ads.

I agree with the OP that I like Instagram's personalized ads and have bought many things through them. (FWIW I used to work at IG — on messaging, not on ads — but I felt this way even before I worked there, and I continue to feel this way after leaving.) Everyone else seems to suck at it though and just do the "show me what I bought yesterday" type of advertising, which is far more annoying than just picking a product to advertise at random.

Maybe a working FLoC would be better than the cookie-based ultra "personalized" ads that most companies use? If it stops the annoying persistent yesterday's-shopping-cart around the internet, at least, it would be an improvement.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#124

Post by Qub3d »

jedimastert wrote: post #89
justinplouffe wrote: post #12

What bothers me the most about FLOC is that there is no reason or advantage for me as a user to run it unless I'm forced to. Cookies, even if they get hijacked for tracking, are genuinely useful to persist state and having them on results in a better experience. Even in the case of something more invasive like DRM/EME, I might want to turn it on in exchange to be able to watch some new show on a streaming service. Tu…

> Turning on FLOC brings nothing to the user in return and feels like charity towards advertisers. I would call it a charity to the site owner whose (presumably) free content you're consuming. What it brings to the user is the ability of the site owner to continue making content.

FLoC isn't needed to show ads any more than cookies are. If we hadn't gotten everyone used to the gravy of personalized ads, this wouldn't be an issue. But going back to placing ads based on, say, the website or the expected audience in general is like getting the camel out of the tent[0].

[0]: The Camel's Nose - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camel%27s_nose

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#125

Post by HWR_14 »

jedberg wrote: post #121
HWR_14 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I probably click on at least 1/4 of the ads I get, and have definitely made purchases based on Instagram ads. In an anonymized (or not) way, can you tell me something you found via an Instagram ad that you were not aware existed and then purchased?

Copying from my comment above, here are some examples of things I've bought. I like trying out new things because I can afford it, but I don't always have time to go out and look for them. So examples of things that I've bought from Instagram ads: The comma2 (autopilot for my Honda van). I knew OpenPilot existed, but until I saw that ad, I didn't know there was a product I could buy with it already installed. I liked…

I am kind of amazed, because you are the first person I've interacted with who (a) claims to like personalized ads and (b) has actually answered that question. Those are interesting. I understand the Pride Lego set being an ad, but the comma2 was?

Do you know why the comma2 was advertised to you?

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#126

Post by nightpool »

lgats wrote: post #113
jedimastert wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> searching for thyroid cancer treatments Subtle note, this would probably fall under the "sensitive topics" category discussed and not be tracked, but insert niche hobby here and your point still stands

Though the categories are defined [1], how does the browser determine a site falls into one of these categories? [1] https://support.google.com/adspolicy/answer/143465?hl=en

It's not a secret, the whitepaper and proposed algorithm is linked in TFA: https://docs.google.com/a/google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=sites&sr...

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#127

Post by nightpool »

tomrod wrote: post #18

FLoC: micro market segmentation. Profiles versus data. It requires on 33 bits to uniquely identify an individual. [0]. I would be interested to learn whether FLoC employed k-anonymity measures, and their report on it. If I am retired, female, live in the 830* zip3, and own a sedan, it is probably hard to identify me. Add that I am Korean and am searching for thyroid cancer treatments on Tuesday at 8:43AM local, then…

If you don't understand how FLOC works, then maybe you should look into how it works before commenting? FLoC was designed with K-anonymity as their main goal and measure from the ground up, and the results of their trials are publicly available: https://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium-privacy/privacy-sandb...

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#128

Post by jedberg »

HWR_14 wrote: post #125
jedberg wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copying from my comment above, here are some examples of things I've bought. I like trying out new things because I can afford it, but I don't always have time to go out and look for them. So examples of things that I've bought from Instagram ads: The comma2 (autopilot for my Honda van). I knew OpenPilot existed, but until I saw that ad, I didn't know there was a product I could buy with it already installed. I liked…

I am kind of amazed, because you are the first person I've interacted with who (a) claims to like personalized ads and (b) has actually answered that question. Those are interesting. I understand the Pride Lego set being an ad, but the comma2 was? Do you know why the comma2 was advertised to you?

Why wouldn’t the comma2 have an ad? It’s a commercial product.

No idea why it was marched to me, but it worked.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#129

Post by yarcob »

If you peel away the buzzwords, FLOC is basically just your browser tracking you, and telling advertisers which ads you are most likely to click on. Google claims to do this in a way that preserves your privacy, but ultimately these are empty promises. There is no way to spy on people without being creepy. Many (most?) people don't want to be tracked at all, "privately" or not.

It's such a pity that online advertising has turned in this direction. It started out so well intentioned! Search ads showed ads related to your search, Google adwords showed ads related to the content of the page you viewed. No invasive tracking necessary!

And now we have come to this. Tracking everyone everywhere has become so pervasive that an operating system vendor has just announced this week that they are building a first party VPN into the OS in a desparate attempt to reduce this ubiquitous tracking...

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#130

Post by p49k »

google234123 wrote: post #72
p49k wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The end doesn’t justify the means. Finding out about some cool stuff doesn’t justify the insane amount of collection of ones personal data by hundreds of companies in a manner which is basically impossible for a person to reasonably prevent.

An internet with no ads will have much less content.

That's a false dichotomy. You can have ads without tracking user activity; for example, contextual ads.
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