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Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

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Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#361

Post by DoreenMichele »

azangru wrote: post #268

Ok, while Linus so righteously describes the basic molecular biology of RNA, here are some of the less insane questions that he doesn't address: 1) After an injection of mRNA (inside of lipid nanoparticles, if I understand correctly) into the body, which cells will the mRNA enter? 2) The mRNA will cause the synthesis of the spike protein that will be displayed on the surface of these cells and initiate the immune res…

People have been downvote-happy since, roughly, the beginning of the pandemic. And I saw multiple reddits gain a lot of new members during lock down. I haven't seen numbers for HN, but I assume there has been an influx of new people here as well because, wow, is the Eternal September especially bad of late.

You are probably asking questions to which we don't have answers. Someone with medical credentials once told me "You are asking questions they don't have answers for. That's not how medical studies work." and I think people get cranky any time you ask questions the studies aren't designed to answer. For many people, it likely smacks of "You are just being a smartass." and "How dare you make the authorities look dumb!" or something like that.

4) Why do some vaccine recipients seem to develop thrombotic events?

My assumption would be that this is related to the fact that the infection itself seems to cause blood clots and my general impression is that what it does to the blood system is a significant issue and a large part of why it is deadly.

I am not a medical professional. I'm just a random internet stranger who reads and is making conversation on the internet.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#362

Post by JackFr »

fooey wrote: post #274
swader999 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same with the push for vaccine passports. Really gets my fur up and question why the need for heavy hands.

There's long established precedent that schools and colleges are allowed to require proof of vaccination. The idea isn't remotely new, and is nothing so odious as critics claim

I am not a lawyer, nor a public health legal expert but I think there is a significant legal difference between COVID and ordinary vaccine requirements because the COVID vaccines are only authorized for emergency use.

I think schools and colleges requiring vaccination are also offering accommodations (distance learning, etc.) to avoid legal fights, while if the vaccines were fully authorized they would not.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#363

Post by jonhohle »

MikeKusold wrote: post #161
losvedir wrote: post #55

I'm vaccinated but I think it's hindsight bias to say the mRNA vaccines are obviously safe. We had to wait for clinical trials to show that. There has been a great deal of research and development on the delivery of the mRNA, what kind of molecule to wrap it in, for example. Additionally, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with e.g. the Spanish Flu, the morbidity was not from the flu, per se, but the immune res…

They are not "obviously safe". The mRNA vaccines just had an article today that exposed a link to heart inflammation. The AstraZeneca vaccine also has some side effects that didn't show up in their abbreviated trials. I understand why someone would be hesitant to get a vaccine that only has Emergency Use Authorization. That said, I personally believe that the benefits outweigh the potential side-effects. If I weren't…

I'm concerned, especially in the tech community, that there is so much aggravation toward a group that wants more data before making a decision that could have long term repercussions. The CDC has a page describing past vaccine safety issues, the most recent being 2013[0]. Errors include unexpected side effects or complicates and manufacturing issues.

The treatment being offered is unlike any other mainstream protocol, has not completed the FDA approval process that every other vaccine that's given to the general population (in the US) has gone through.

Add to that counter-intuitive advice being given by medical professionals. When I was young, I had chicken pox. I was never offered the vaccine that my children have received. However, previously infected people are being urged to undergo this treatment. I could do the primary research to determine _why_ that is the case, or those urging everyone to participate can explain clearly why it's different this time.

I don't like the language chosen, which, to me, obscures the idea that what is being offered is like a yearly flu vaccine or any other dead/disabled/controlled viral vaccine. I've read that there are vaccines for SARS-CoV2 that are similar to what normally comes to mind, but they are not available in my country.

mRNA research is awesome. The technique is very cool, but beyond the theoretical best case scenario, what are the failure cases for these treatments? What if the mRNA is damaged along the way. What if there are unknown issue with the delivery mechanism.

Ultimately, I am the primary income for our family and in a not-at-risk category if I were to get infected. At this time, I've decided that is a safer position for my family. I'm hoping that as FDA approval is granted and longer term affects are well known that I'll be comfortable going forward, but at this point I am not.

I'm not anti-vax, but not keen to be an early adopter for new treatment option when I'm not at danger of what I'm being protected from. There's the additional argument about protecting those that can't be vaccinated, but I'm happy to follow other hygiene protocols that have been used in practice for much longer.

0 - https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/concerns/concerns-history....

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#364

Post by macksd »

tshaddox wrote: post #188
Quillbert182 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They may not have the answers, but you would think they would have a better idea of where to look than someone with no medical experience at all.

Why do you think that? Perhaps they might have access to some paywalled medical journals, but other than that I don't see why they would have a better idea of where to look than an interested and scientifically literate person who hasn't been to medical school or practiced medicine.

In the end, I got my answer because somebody in the medical field made personal introductions until I got an actual expert working in the field. So clearly it's not such a moronic approach.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#365

Post by macksd »

avl999 wrote: post #102
macksd wrote: post #15

Absolutely agree with everything Linus says here. But I'm almost equally concerned that there's an awful lot of people on the pro-science bandwagon who don't actually support science, but simply don't tolerate dissent or questioning, and that's unscientific and potentially harmful too. I scanned most of the Pfizer trial and was wondering why we expected the immunity after the vaccine to last longer than natural immun…

Why are you expecting your nurse and anesthesiologist friends to answer questions about mrna technology and then taking it to mean something when they can't answer? That's like reading a paper about an advancement in compiler parsing technology asking an average Software Developer who has spent the last 3 years of his career doing React apps to answer detailed and specific questions about ambiguities in the said pape…

I didn't take it to mean something that they didn't know answer. But as relative experts in the medical field, they considered it a good and valuable question.

I was contrasting this with keyboard experts who berated me for asking but know even less. The former are pro-science. They have studied. They didn't know. They valud the question.

Others knew less and didn't even see why it was a valid thing to wonder about. Instead of any scientific answer, they regurgitated garbage.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#366

Post by kaba0 »

dvt wrote: post #291
tux3 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Social IQ isn't really HN's forte. Rude and uncalled for, even after your edit. Patient discussion is ineffective on people who are acting in bad faith. It is counterproductive. There is no debate to be had. No one is genuinely trying to learn anything here. By giving con artists and dangerous vaccine conspiracies a space, you legitimize their line of questionning. LKML is not a place to send anti-vax emails or to…

> Rude and uncalled for, even after your edit. I was just correcting the term in the edit, but I agree I'm being a bit inflammatory. > Deplatforming works. No it doesn't. The entire history of Western Liberalism—since the Magna Carta onwards—teaches us that censorship is quite literally never the answer.

> No it doesn't. The entire history of Western Liberalism—since the Magna Carta onwards—teaches us that censorship is quite literally never the answer.

There is basically almost no precedent to todays problem of misinformation spread, so historical examples are near useless. Censorship is a trivial problem to overcome in the modern world contrary to the last century’s vision, one can’t really hide anything on the internet. The censored information itself will be available in some way. What is much more effective in preventing information flow is the other direction, obfuscation or overloading of information.

A great example of it is an older Russian voting fraud, where video footage leaked of a man repeatedly throwing in ballots. It got quickly shared over Twitter with the name of the town in hashtags — there was no chance of censoring that. The solution was to spam twitter with unrelated bullshit with #NameOfTown, effectively putting out the flame.

And unfortunately bullshit like antivaxx, anti-climatechange, and political campaigns do use this technique very effectively to counter the usually more complex scientific arguments. People prefer taking only a few logical steps instead of the whole “we create the replica of parts of the virus by injecting the …”. Unfortunately I don’t know what would be a solution to this. Perhaps better education..

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#367

Post by fastaguy88 »

galgalesh wrote: post #256
H8crilA wrote: post #140

Just to clear one thing: Vaccines actually do edit the genetic code, but only of some select B-cells. And so does any other antigen that your body develops antibodies for. The process is very complicated and beautiful, and is pretty much exactly the same as in plenty of other multicellular life forms. If you've ever wondered what's the "storage format" for all the recipes for all the different antibodies that your bo…

Is it fair to say vaccines rewrite it, though? It's more like your immune system rewriting it in response to the vaccine. It's like saying a virus rewrites antivirus programs. Yes, the databases get updated for every new virus, but it's not the virus doing that directly.

No, vaccines do not rewrite the genome, even in immune cells. The immune cells are constantly rewriting their own genetic code, with or without antigens (vaccines). The vaccines simply cause the cells with an appropriately rewritten code to be selected for, and increase in number.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#368

Post by nemothekid »

caeril wrote: post #354
barbazoo wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> prevents serious illness and death > Only in 60+ patients with co-morbidity. That's false. See [1] for data on deaths by age in the US. There's about 115,000 deaths in the age groups [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-...

GP should have said " or with co-morbidities". Digging into the A year of largely ineffective masking hysteria and not one noteworthy public health figure suggested putting down the donut to reduce the risk of death from COVID-19. We shuttered gyms and discouraged outdoor activity instead.

>not one noteworthy public health figure suggested putting down the donut to reduce the risk of death from COVID-19

Great point. The overweight should have just lost 50 pounds in 30 days.

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#369

Post by kaba0 »

mandmandam wrote: post #84
seattle_spring wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe so, but I've observed that attitude to be far more prevalent on the anti-vax side than the pro-science side. You don't really see people who advocate for the vaccine calling anyone who disagrees "sheeple," "NPCs," etc., nor do they whine about downvotes or "being silenced," or misattribute moderation to first amendment violations.

Not all vaccines are the same, so pro science and anti vaxx are not always opposed. I am pro science, but science doesn't claim that all vaccines are safe. And let's not forget that pharma co's have tried very hard to make vaccines mandatory, to the point of bribing academics and officials, forming unaccountable PR groups, and in the not so distant past they've done truly horrific and inhuman things. After the lab-le…

> I am pro science, but science doesn't claim that all vaccines are safe

Indeed. But science does claim that Pfizer, Moderna, etc COVID-vaccines are safe and you are un-scientific if you claim otherwise. They went through proper trials, and were accepted independently* by many countries.

* not completely independently I’m sure, but my point is that even if you don’t trust your country at all, several other ones decided univocally that it is safe

Re: Linus Torvalds on mRNA Vaccines

#370

Post by azangru »

DoreenMichele wrote: post #361
azangru wrote: post #268

Ok, while Linus so righteously describes the basic molecular biology of RNA, here are some of the less insane questions that he doesn't address: 1) After an injection of mRNA (inside of lipid nanoparticles, if I understand correctly) into the body, which cells will the mRNA enter? 2) The mRNA will cause the synthesis of the spike protein that will be displayed on the surface of these cells and initiate the immune res…

People have been downvote-happy since, roughly, the beginning of the pandemic. And I saw multiple reddits gain a lot of new members during lock down. I haven't seen numbers for HN, but I assume there has been an influx of new people here as well because, wow, is the Eternal September especially bad of late. You are probably asking questions to which we don't have answers. Someone with medical credentials once told me…

> You are probably asking questions to which we don't have answers.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the qualifications of people who post on Hacker News. Who knows; perhaps there's a stray immunologist among the visitors.

What depresses me quite a bit is that discussions in public forums regarding vaccines never seem to move past a high-school science lesson in physiology and cell biology. Which tends to leave people with a rather superficial understanding of what a vaccine does, yet with a high degree of confidence in that they understand how it works.

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