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Privacy Analysis of FLoC

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Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#41

Post by j_wtf_all_taken »

ahelwer wrote: post #36
jedberg wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure there are some forums where people who sell ads like them too. :) But what can I say, I'm a realist. I spent a lot of years working on a website supported by advertising. I understand not everyone will or can pay for the websites they enjoy, and advertising is a good second option. And if we're going to have to live in a world with ad supported websites, I'd rather those ads be good.

You're defining "good" here to mean "effective at manipulating me to spend money", which is strange! I'd rather not be manipulated into buying things I didn't realize would finally fill the gaping hole inside my soul until two seconds ago. Would be perfectly content seeing ads for, I don't know, farm equipment until I happily perish of old age never once experiencing the fomo of not possessing a theragun.

But then it seems the problem is not ads, but the gaping holes in peoples souls?

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#42

Post by summerlight »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #26
jedberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like personalized ads. If I have to suffer with ads to support the websites I like, I'd rather have them personalized. Instagram is really good at this -- I probably click on at least 1/4 of the ads I get, and have definitely made purchases based on Instagram ads. So as a user, the benefit would be better ads. Honestly I'll probably leave FLOC on if given the option (although I use Firefox and Safari, and as far as…

HN is the only place on the internet I've seen people expound their love for personalized advertising.

https://univ20.com/107631

There's an interesting article regarding behavioral observations on personalized advertisements, though it's in Korean. Summary for those who doesn't want to use a translator (KR to EN performance is typically bad):

  * Generation Z's reaction to ads personalization category (from Google and FB) is somewhat positive in that they don't really care about its creepiness but think more accurate categorization on each personality as a better thing. The report thinks that they consider it as more of utility rather than just privacy invasion.
  * More interestingly, sometime they "guide" ad targeting systems to show information that matches to their interests to save their efforts on searching for perfect matches. Honestly, I was super surprised since I haven't thought about this kind of usage even though I'm working on ads.
  * Some of them (though the tone indicates that it's not majority?) does not skip video ads to "pay" a subscription fee for creators who they want to support. I saw some similar cases even in the US though.
  * Sometime they're actively looking for explicitly sponsored reviews, which is actually an ad. It's because they sometime decide to buy specific products before watching its ads. This inversion of causality seems very odd to me, but the rationale is that they just want to better understand the product and don't care whether it's an ad or not.
It's written by a marketer who seems to be negative about personalized ads and genuinely surprised by these observations. Honestly... I still cannot get this but yeah, it seems there's some people who consider personalized ads as a tool.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#43

Post by p49k »

jedberg wrote: post #38
ahelwer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're defining "good" here to mean "effective at manipulating me to spend money", which is strange! I'd rather not be manipulated into buying things I didn't realize would finally fill the gaping hole inside my soul until two seconds ago. Would be perfectly content seeing ads for, I don't know, farm equipment until I happily perish of old age never once experiencing the fomo of not possessing a theragun.

I'm defining good as "informing of things I didn't know existed". I consider advertising just another news channel. Copying from my comment above, here are some examples of things I've bought. I like trying out new things because I can afford it, but I don't always have time to go out and look for them. So examples of things that I've bought from Instagram ads: The comma2 (autopilot for my Honda van). I knew OpenPilo…

The end doesn’t justify the means. Finding out about some cool stuff doesn’t justify the insane amount of collection of ones personal data by hundreds of companies in a manner which is basically impossible for a person to reasonably prevent.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#44

Post by wizzwizz4 »

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #41
ahelwer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're defining "good" here to mean "effective at manipulating me to spend money", which is strange! I'd rather not be manipulated into buying things I didn't realize would finally fill the gaping hole inside my soul until two seconds ago. Would be perfectly content seeing ads for, I don't know, farm equipment until I happily perish of old age never once experiencing the fomo of not possessing a theragun.

But then it seems the problem is not ads, but the gaping holes in peoples souls?

The ads are opening those holes. It doesn't take long for them to close again, but by that time you've decided to buy the thing.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#45

Post by j_wtf_all_taken »

jedberg wrote: post #38
ahelwer wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're defining "good" here to mean "effective at manipulating me to spend money", which is strange! I'd rather not be manipulated into buying things I didn't realize would finally fill the gaping hole inside my soul until two seconds ago. Would be perfectly content seeing ads for, I don't know, farm equipment until I happily perish of old age never once experiencing the fomo of not possessing a theragun.

I'm defining good as "informing of things I didn't know existed". I consider advertising just another news channel. Copying from my comment above, here are some examples of things I've bought. I like trying out new things because I can afford it, but I don't always have time to go out and look for them. So examples of things that I've bought from Instagram ads: The comma2 (autopilot for my Honda van). I knew OpenPilo…

It'd just be nice to have a little more control, for starters. So advertisers try to figure out what we want by what websites we visit and are not too good at it. They could also just ... ask? I'd like to have an ad service that I can tell what I'm actually interested in these days, and that forces the companies to provide lots of information about the product they are advertising for (documentation and stuff). So if I see an interesting ad, I can easily find out if its actually something I want. And money only flows if I actually buy something, affiliate-link style.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#47

Post by jedberg »

j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #45
jedberg wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm defining good as "informing of things I didn't know existed". I consider advertising just another news channel. Copying from my comment above, here are some examples of things I've bought. I like trying out new things because I can afford it, but I don't always have time to go out and look for them. So examples of things that I've bought from Instagram ads: The comma2 (autopilot for my Honda van). I knew OpenPilo…

It'd just be nice to have a little more control, for starters. So advertisers try to figure out what we want by what websites we visit and are not too good at it. They could also just ... ask? I'd like to have an ad service that I can tell what I'm actually interested in these days, and that forces the companies to provide lots of information about the product they are advertising for (documentation and stuff). So if…

Unfortunately asking users doesn't usually work out well. My favorite example is from Netflix. They asked users, "What movie needs to be on the service for you to consider it a good service with good movies that you would want to see repeatedly". A lot of people answered "Schindler's list". But when you looked at those same user's actual viewing, they never once watched Schindler's list, but they watch Jackass multiple times. So what they really wanted was Jackass, but either were too ashamed to admit it, or didn't actually understand their own preferences.

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#48

Post by j_wtf_all_taken »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #44
j_wtf_all_taken wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then it seems the problem is not ads, but the gaping holes in peoples souls?

The ads are opening those holes. It doesn't take long for them to close again, but by that time you've decided to buy the thing.

I strongly believe that gaping holes did exist in peoples souls waaaay before ads were invented.

Don't know, though ... when I asked the all-knowing internet if "gaping holes did exist in people's souls before ads were invented", the first search result is a link to the Harry Potter Fandom-Wiki article about Dementors:

"Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. They infest the darkest, filthiest places, they glory in decay and despair, they drain peace, hope, and happiness out of the air around them... Get too near a Dementor and every good feeling, every happy memory will be sucked out of you. If it can, the Dementor will feed on you long enough to reduce you to something like itself... soulless and evil. You will be left with nothing but the worst experiences of your life."

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#49

Post by ocdtrekkie »

thanhhaimai wrote: post #15
______- wrote: post #2

> FLoC is premised on a compelling idea: enable ad targeting without exposing users to risk The second you open your browser you are exposed to risk. Many times I have had to tweak the default settings of my browser to comply with my (non paranoid) requirements. Basic things like putting DuckDuckGo as the default search engine, turning off various JS APIs like HTML5 Canvas, WebGL, using AD-blockers and other addons,…

Opinions are my own. I'm not sure if we're being led to focus on a wrong problem. I hate intrusive Ads as much as everyone else. However, it's not only that "when you open your browser, you are exposed to risk". It's also: - Every time you use Windows (without turning off all the bad settings) - Every time you connect to a Cell tower (telcos openly sell your location data) - Every time you use your credit cards Now,…

Telecoms are heavily regulated, and your link reinforces that: The FCC is able to directly fine telcos from selling our location data. Tech companies generally aren't subject to the same fines as telecoms are for doing... exactly the same things.

And while Verizon, T-Mobile, etc. all have programs that opt-in to data collection and marketing practices, it's often impossible to opt out of tech companies' behaviors. Because telecoms are required to get your opt-in consent to use your data, generally they offer incentives to join rewards programs that have the additional marketing permissions as a requirement.

For example, Verizon Up Rewards requires you enable Verizon Selects, where they can collect information about your web browsing activity and such: https://www.androidauthority.com/verizons-new-rewards-progra... Not something I'd want to participate in, but Verizon is paying it's users for that data in effect, something tech companies never do.

> Opinions are my own.

I find it impressive how well this line still singularly identifies the employer of anyone who uses it. :)

Re: Privacy Analysis of FLoC

#50

Post by wearywanderer »

leipert wrote: post #32
jedberg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like personalized ads. If I have to suffer with ads to support the websites I like, I'd rather have them personalized. Instagram is really good at this -- I probably click on at least 1/4 of the ads I get, and have definitely made purchases based on Instagram ads. So as a user, the benefit would be better ads. Honestly I'll probably leave FLOC on if given the option (although I use Firefox and Safari, and as far as…

Interesting. I just dislike ads altogether. Especially Instagram feels very manipulative. So far nothing we have bought based on Instagram or Facebook ads has been useful in the long run. Personally I prefer to either have a need for something (I want to solve problem X) and do some research based off of that. Or I share an experience with a friend where they make a recommendation. Funniest Facebook ad by the way: I…

Advertising is linked to depression, body dysmorphic disorders like anorexia, and numerous other adverse mental conditions. The advertising industry has a whole lot of blood on their hands. This is an industry that doesn't think twice about exploiting people's feelings of vulnerability or isolation to help sell products. The more vulnerable the demographic, the more abusive the advertising industry gets. Just look at the shit they subject teenagers to; almost all the advertising to teenagers is focused on how buying [product] will make the teenager like the popular and attractive models being used to shill the product.
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