Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose • Hacker News Board

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#21

Post by JoshTriplett » Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 9:53 PM UTC

bauchidgw wrote: post #6

sometimes big companies hire me to tell them what to do with their beans, then they are disappointed that i did not tell them to stick them up their noses. in the next step they claim i missunderstood the question, the question was not really about "what to do with the beans", it was more about "how should we stick them up our noses in the best way"

There's a reason that Open Source communities often react to strange questions with "can you explain what you want to do?" or a similar request for the bigger picture. Too many people start down a chain of reasoning based on how they want to solve a problem, get to step 7 of 10 of a bad plan, and ask for help proceeding to step 8. Explaining how to get to step 8 solves the problem they think they have, but asking for the big picture can lead to a much better solution to the problem they actually care about.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#22

Post by guelo » Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:43 PM UTC

thaumaturgy wrote: post #13

dkarl wrote: post #9

Of course, if they answer they enjoyed it and it was wonderful, then they are not someone I can relate to or help in any way. Or, of course, you might be about to learn something, since sticking beans up your nose is a metaphor you chose for something you think is so stupid you would never actually try it.

Congratulations, you've just displayed a level of perception which is almost completely absent from I.T.: that there are often reasons other than the purely technical ones involved in decision-making. There are a couple of traps in consulting. One is the trap where the consultant believes that they have a bird's-eye view of the problem to be solved, when they're actually looking through a keyhole. (Security-related c…

As a consultant you have to give advice with the knowledge you have, you should ask the questions to get as big a picture as you can. If based on your experience you see someone sticking the bean up their nose you should point it out, you are getting paid for your experience. There isn't a way of knowing if there are unknown unknowns so you do the best you can, just try to be humble and open minded as much as you can, even if this is the 100th time you've seen this being done and you're pretty sure of the outcome.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#23

Post by lamnk » Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 10:45 PM UTC

It's easy if you are consulting, just step aside. What if it's your boss who want to stick beans up his nose (constantly)?

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#24

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 11:09 PM UTC

Dylan16807 wrote: post #19

HeyLaughingBoy wrote: post #8

This person is assuming that people want his advice, or to tell them why they're wrong. Very often people are intent on doing something that seems stupid to you, but smart to them. In that situation they really don't want to be told that they are wrong and the best thing you can do is stand nearby, ready to dial 911. Sometimes the only "right" response is "I would not have thought of doing it that way. What can I do…

He's talking about consulting. I would sure hope the person paying him for advice wants his advice. And the idea here is that it's preferable to get a job with someone who will listen to that advice they paid for to reach a reasonable conclusion, which seems like a perfectly good plan to me.

Often consulting clients only want the consultant to validate what they've already decided to do. Sure, it's best if they listen to you; you are the "expert" after all. But sometimes the best you can do is sit back and do damage control after the fact.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#25

Post by dennisgorelik » Sat, Jul 09, 2011, 11:38 PM UTC

First commenter under that article gave a link to http://www.kingdom.com as an example.

I wonder what they did -- that web site is not responsive at the moment.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#26

Post by berberich » Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 12:26 AM UTC

dennisgorelik wrote: post #25

First commenter under that article gave a link to http://www.kingdom.com as an example. I wonder what they did -- that web site is not responsive at the moment.

Looks like it's an ecommerce site specializing in church-related technologies.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#27

Post by blantonl » Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 12:31 AM UTC

gruseom wrote: post #10

Gerald Weinberg's Secrets of Consulting is a masterful (yet whimsical) meditation on this subject. It's one of the few business books everybody should read, except it isn't really a business book, it's a people book. Much of the material is counterintuitive. It's kind of like Dale Carnegie for human irrationality. The book begins with the premise that just because someone is paying you for advice doesn't mean they ac…

I really like the link you've made between consulting and psychotherapy. You've touched on something that fascinates me, and that is the how an individual acts differently at home and at work.

An example is the difference between how different types of salesmen operate. Those that sell to individuals (or families) must navigate through a very personal and emotional process, whereas salesmen that sell to corporations (aka: "sales professionals") must balance corporate bureaucracy and personal one-on-one relationships.

In all the cases, it is a fascinating dynamic to observe and learn from.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#28

Post by spatten » Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 12:34 AM UTC

lamnk wrote: post #23

It's easy if you are consulting, just step aside. What if it's your boss who want to stick beans up his nose (constantly)?

You're making the assumption that a consultant can step aside with only a minor financial hiccup.

Unfortunately, the 80/20 rule applies to consulting too, so you often find yourself in the situation where 80% of your revenue comes from the guy with the beans.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#29

Post by F_J_H » Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 12:48 AM UTC

j_baker wrote: post #2

You know, this is really important to learn. If someone wants to put a bean up their nose, you tell them that you don't think it's a good idea and explain why, but step out of their way. When they realize that their plan was an objectively bad idea, they're more willing to listen to you the next time around. Sometimes people just don't appreciate that you're trying to help them, and need to learn from experience (mys…

I remember reading a J.K. Rowling quote from one of the Potter books that goes something like "...people find it far easier to forgive others for being wrong than being right." I've learned that "they" probably won't come to you the "next time around".

I've also learned to appreciate some further advice I received and desperately needed to hear: convincing someone of something takes a lot more than emphatically stating a logical argument.

Re: Rule of Consulting: You can’t stop people from sticking beans up their nose

#30

Post by JangoSteve » Sun, Jul 10, 2011, 1:07 AM UTC

JoshTriplett wrote: post #21

bauchidgw wrote: post #6

sometimes big companies hire me to tell them what to do with their beans, then they are disappointed that i did not tell them to stick them up their noses. in the next step they claim i missunderstood the question, the question was not really about "what to do with the beans", it was more about "how should we stick them up our noses in the best way"

There's a reason that Open Source communities often react to strange questions with "can you explain what you want to do?" or a similar request for the bigger picture. Too many people start down a chain of reasoning based on how they want to solve a problem, get to step 7 of 10 of a bad plan, and ask for help proceeding to step 8. Explaining how to get to step 8 solves the problem they think they have, but asking for…

The problem with this sort of response is that, somewhere down the road, someone else using that open-source project will be working on an entirely different problem and actually have a legitimate need to make that same jump from point a to point b.

Naturally they'll hit up the googles and get excited when they see that someone else had that exact problem before. But then, instead of a solution, they are presented with 15 answers that all say "you're doing it wrong".

This is why my favorite answers are those that say something along the lines of, "technically, the answer to your question is... but the fact that you're having this problem may be an indicator that there's a better way."