Software is eating the car • Hacker News Board

Re: Software is eating the car

#101

Post by itsoktocry » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

temporallobe wrote: post #82

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Car guy here. Yeah, I’m with you. My favorite car was a ‘96 Tercel with mechanical steering and a 4-speed manual. It even had manual roll-up windows. It had less than 100 HP, but it was simple as hell to operate, very fun to drive, cheap to maintain, and extremely reliable up until I sold it with nearly 400k miles on the odo. I put an aftermarket stereo and speakers in it and I was set. Only reason I sold it was beca…

>My favorite car was a ‘96 Tercel with mechanical steering and a 4-speed manual. It even had manual roll-up windows.

I had a 1993 Tercel, same gearbox, manual windows, vinyl interior. It had a leaking head gasket when I bought it, and I drove it for 150,000 km without putting a dime into it outside of oil changes and tires, filling the coolant as needed. Simple cars are basically indestructible.

Re: Software is eating the car

#102

Post by numpad0 » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

andrewia wrote: post #50

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

If you want the simplest car possible, you can look at models designed to sell in volume worldwide. I'm talking the Hyundai Venue crossover, Hyundai Accent subcompact sedan, Honda Fit/Jazz hatchback (recently discontinued for the US), Ford EcoSport crossover, etc. They are designed to be serviced in poor conditions. They will tolerate removal of electronics like the infotainment because some countries' base models ha…

It’s so wrong that tech inclined wants cheapest models for the reason that those are objectively better. The entire car industry is going to go iPhone all over again.

Re: Software is eating the car

#103

Post by jude- » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

xxpor wrote: post #67

bobajeff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I like the tech behind Tesla but am turned off by. 1) The large, distracting screen in the front of the car. 2) The subscription model of the car's firmware. If electric cars ever become widespread I hope I can find a used one engineered without that stuff. Otherwise I may have to stop buying cars.

Subscription model?

Some of the extra infotainment stuff (read: media content) is subscription only. Some functional extras like full self-driving or faster acceleration are one-off purchases. The rest of the software -- all the things you'd expect the car to do -- comes with the vehicle and gets regular OTA updates.

Re: Software is eating the car

#104

Post by neilpanchal » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:36 PM UTC

vannevar wrote: post #7

SavantIdiot wrote: post #3

Short answer to the lede: no, the industry cannot cope. Or rather, it will limp along with bloatware, bugs, and malware exactly the same way we see desktop OSes bloat, or the way we see routers and set-top boxes hacked to become botnets. In my 40+ years in the industry I've yet to see code get SMALLER. With the exception of Linux kernel 1.0 in the 90's which was a step backwards into smaller, more compact code, code…

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

Check out Bollinger motors [1]. Electric chassis, all analog, no screens. Here is a shot of the interior: https://bollingermotors.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/CLOSE...

[1] https://bollingermotors.com/

Re: Software is eating the car

#105

Post by circularfoyers » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

rootusrootus wrote: post #89

brundolf wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They'd be insanely popular in circles like HN . I think you have a warped perspective of what the typical buyer is enticed by.

> insanely popular in circles like HN Heck, even then I expect it would just be popular with a very small, very loud niche within HN.

By loud I assume you mean the top comments, which says to me this is popular with the many not the few of the HN crowd.

Re: Software is eating the car

#106

Post by jude- » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

galangalalgol wrote: post #20

MengerSponge wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mazda doesn't get nearly enough respect for their work identifying and correcting this issue. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur... Touchscreens/touch panels are shiny, futuristic, dangerous, dumb, and cheap. Manufacturers use them because they lower BOM costs, at the expense of usability and safety. Vote with your wallet folks.

Mazda would make a great EV, but that is sadly not on their roadmap for the foreseeable future. I have been told this is probably an influence from Toyota's large share ownership, not wanting competition in that space.

The guy who designs Tesla vehicles actually used to work for Mazda as chief of design: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franz_von_Holzhausen

Re: Software is eating the car

#107

Post by neilpanchal » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

mthomasmw wrote: post #6

Serious question - what alternatives are left for those of us who want a dumb car? I've spent the last three months finding out I can't get solar panels installed without a high-fidelity power-monitor tap connected to the provider's cloud, logging every appliance I use and what it's doing. Same deal with cars - they are on the internet and they generate evidence used to convict, and geofencing is coming. Other than s…

Kit cars such as https://www.factoryfive.com/. I am sure electric chassis will pop up in the future.

Re: Software is eating the car

#108

Post by Judgmentality » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

Buttons840 wrote: post #60

vannevar wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Glad to hear I'm not the only one who wants a dumb car. Unfortunately, the idea of electric cars has become bound up with the notion of software-driven cars. I want an electric car with analog controls, no touch screens or over-the-air updates, and minimal software. A car that I feel like I own, rather than one I'm getting a click-through license to use.

You know the dark pattern of presenting a license agreement over and over until it's accepted? I predict one day someone will make the argument in court that they always declined the EULA (perhaps the one in their car) hundreds of times, but one day accidentally brushed "accept" with their finger, and that doesn't constitute legal acceptance, especially since they've demonstrated an effort to decline the EULA, but be…

Fun fact - if you buy the car new, you may have the "option" of being presented with these choices before purchase. And you can actually refuse! The dealer will be confused as hell, but they are hell-bent on selling a new car, and will actually void it if possible. I know because I've done it. You don't want the weird spyware (OnStar, Carnet, etcetera)? After agreeing to buy the car, refuse to accept the terms (they legally require your signature for this), and they'll find a way to get around it. If they refuse then go buy a different car, because fuck those guys.

Obviously this will vary by manufacturer and feature, and it's getting harder as time goes on to remove this shit from your vehicle.

Re: Software is eating the car

#109

Post by GeorgeTirebiter » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

jrwoodruff wrote: post #91

temporallobe wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car guy here. Yeah, I’m with you. My favorite car was a ‘96 Tercel with mechanical steering and a 4-speed manual. It even had manual roll-up windows. It had less than 100 HP, but it was simple as hell to operate, very fun to drive, cheap to maintain, and extremely reliable up until I sold it with nearly 400k miles on the odo. I put an aftermarket stereo and speakers in it and I was set. Only reason I sold it was beca…

Those mid 90s Japanese sedans were awesome. Relatively compact overall, zippy little 4 cylinders engines and manual transmissions. I had an Accord from that era, and loved driving my dads nerdy-as-hell Nissan Sentra. That car was shockingly fun to drive.

I still drive my '94 Lexus. California is kind in that way.

Re: Software is eating the car

#110

Post by _benj » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 6:39 PM UTC

This makes me think of aeronautical industry. It is possible to get a J-3 Cub with just a stick that pulls on the control surfaces or it is possible to get a Cessna private jet with thousands (if not millions) of lines of code in it. They are just different.

My fear is that we'd get to a point in which dumb cars will be something that is no longer a mainstream option. Maybe then we'll need to have our own EAA but with cars.