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What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

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Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#561

Post by eulers_secret »

phlo wrote: post #116
holoduke wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I despise the whole sharing economy. I prefer the good old days where i own everything i use.

The _actual_ sharing economy is great. Your beef is probably with corporations that masquerade as part of the sharing economy in order to exploit regulatory loopholes (e.g. Uber, Airbnb). For an example of the actual sharing economy: I'm a member of a local cooperative that owns and maintains a fleet of ~3k cars, distributed across the country at most train stations and in many neighborhoods. For an initial deposit o…

I know this is 9 hours old, but this is 100% not for me.

I want to leave items in my car for tomorrow: my face mask, (previously) CDs and tapes, etc.

I want to spend the extra money for 'grippy' tires on my car, or do other mods like use sticky notes on the dash. I want my seat to be in the same position I left it in: It can take a day or two to get it just right. I want to have the option to use a seat cover for comfort.

I want to eat my lunch in my car: I control the climate, I control the music, and I can vape or smoke to my hearts content. It's mine to do that with.

I want to put off unloading my vehicle after a long and arduous camping trip, It's already 8PM when I get home. It can wait for tomorrow, and doesn't cost me anything.

I want to let my muddy dog jump into the back seats, I don't care if they get 'ruined', that's my choice about my property. I don't want a cleaning fee.

Lastly, I want to know for sure my dog won't eat the used condom the last person left under the seat. People are animals, no amount of cleaning between uses can ensure cleanliness 100% of the time. But I can in my car.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#562

Post by cactus2093 »

jaywalk wrote: post #463
cactus2093 wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone with a non Tesla car with some smart cruise control features, I think you’re being too harsh on Tesla. I have a 2020 Hyundai, and there has been no major refresh in the 2021 or 2022 models of the same car. But the software features have each gotten slightly better. The cruise control will only slow down and stop you on my model, but on the newer model, it will stop and then start going again. My model will…

> There’s no way the hardware on my car is the limiting factor I'm not sure why you'd make that assumption. The newer models that can do more may very well have more/better sensors, faster processor(s), more RAM, etc. Just because the interior and exterior look the same doesn't mean that everything else is the same too.

I guess I can't know for sure about any one particular feature. But as far as I can tell, the company doesn't ever backport any smart/autonomous features to older models. Whereas Tesla manages to do this continuously, and years earlier than other brands. I doubt that every single incremental improvement to one of these features relies on brand new hardware or sensors that was not available the year before. Some of them are clearly just software improvements.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#563

Post by avereveard »

rout39574 wrote: post #519
ars wrote: post #494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> since it will be directly tied to risk, computers already drive better than humans They do not! Are you comparing computer driving in "easy" situations with human driving in all situations?

I think the comparison is made over the entire range of situations. If we can get rid of, or vastly reduce, the problems of inattention, exhaustion, rage, chemical impairments and the like, we have a huge improvement. I think that improvement is vastly more, cost measured in human life, than the problems we see with computer control in odd situations. So yes. They do drive better than humans. The fact that their fail…

> their failings are profoundly fewer than ours

Better start showing off some statistics along with that claim.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#564

Post by iso1210 »

ars wrote: post #493
wutbrodo wrote: post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Humans drive correctly 99.99999% of the time. We can't can't even keep a computer up and running that well, never mind driving perfectly. This comparison doesn't make any sense. You're comparing _continuous_ operation with the aggregate of the average human's bouts of driving. Even robotaxis aren't going to run constantly. A sensible analogue would be something like aircraft software, which I'd guess does have near…

> You're comparing _continuous_ operation with the aggregate of the average human's bouts of driving. I don't understand what you mean. I'm comparing actual time behind the wheel - hours of correct driving vs hours (well minutes) of incorrect driving. Do the math yourself, take total hours behind the wheel and divide by the accident rate, like I did. You'll get the same results. Depending on your assumptions anywhere…

84 billion hours of driving[0] for 35,485 deaths[1]. That's one death per 2.4 million hours, so that's an indicator of the magnitude that's needed before even talking about it.

That number also means no situations where the computer gives up and hands control back to the driver.

If autonomous cars can never hand back (at most stopping legally, safely and out of traffic) and cause 1 death per 10 million hours, that would seem about right.

[0] https://www.volpe.dot.gov/news/how-much-time-do-americans-sp...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in...

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#566

Post by 1-6 »

m_mueller wrote: post #97
hyperhopper wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ask yes, exploited human intelligence. Though also, at the same time the liability questions would quickly become... Complicated.... With that model

In the same way that basically the entire modern global economy is exploiting humans? Well it does, but it also gives something back: living together in a civilization that kinda works (so far). I think for a lot of people doing some mechanical turk style driving could actually be quite a satisfying job, more so than e.g. data entry tasks.

Amazon's MTurk still exists!

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#567

Post by chrisBob »

I love to drive, but I would absolutely use this occasionally. I think that in most cases I am a better driver than most autonomous cars, but sometimes I am a situation where I need to get home from the airport at 1am, the long drive takes much longer than expected and extends into the night, or I have a migraine come on while I am out. In those cases I would LOVE to have an hourly service that can help get me and my car home.

My rare use probably means that I am not the ideal target market for something like this, but I am not opposed to the idea.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#568

Post by _ea1k »

GuB-42 wrote: post #225
hyperhopper wrote: post #62

> In a swipe at Tesla, he said that by charging hourly fees, VW would make autonomous driving more accessible than “a car with a five-digit surcharge.” This is completely disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst. This is a perfect example of the boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness [1]. This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over…

Tesla charges $10k for not really self driving, with the promise that it will improve, and you should buy it now, because the price will increase in the future. I.e. they make you pay for something you don't have, with no guarantee that you will have it later. If it isn't a money grab, I don't know what is. And of course you can take a loan on that, so it isn't an upfront cost either. At least, with VW system, you pa…

> At least, with VW system, you pay when you use it. Doesn't work in your area, you don't pay. And if you realize that you can't pay, you can simply drive, your car won't turn into a brick.

I think this is a very optimistic take. We are already seeing the industry push out subscriptions for features like Ford's Blues Cruise. The costs are low now, but obviously they can go up.

I'd be really surprised if VW doesn't start pushing something similar well before they have anything approaching L5 autonomy.

It isn't too crazy either, as these advanced features are already useful.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#569

Post by awillen »

nojokes wrote: post #539
awillen wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"so yes, one starts a company to make money but that is not the reason we have companies." I don't understand this at all. The reason people create companies is the reason that companies exist. They're by definition the same thing - companies don't exist without people creating them. So if people start companies to make money, the reason companies exist is to make the people who start them money.

You can't just create a company - you need a legal framework for a company to exists.

No, this logic is circular. You're defining a company as a thing that we've legally defined as a company, ergo you must have legally defined something as a company for a company to exist.

That's not true, though - the non-legal definition of a company is "a commercial business."

You can absolutely have a commercial business without a legal framework for it. People engaged in work and trade well before anyone wrote up a legal framework for companies.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#570

Post by mikehollinger »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #202
bryanrasmussen wrote: post #164

The car refused to drive autonomously. It said, “$8.50, please.” He searched his pockets. No more coins; nothing. “I’ll pay you tomorrow,” he told the car. Again he tried the self-driving knob. Again it remained locked tight. “What I pay you,” he informed it, “is in the nature of a gratuity; I don’t have to pay you.” “I think otherwise,” the car said. “Look in the purchase contract you signed when you bought this VW…

Reluctantly he coughed up the $8.50. The car then said, "I'm sorry Dave, Seatbelt yearly subscription is also expired. Please pay VW $200 to re-enable, or press the cancel button to drive without a seatbelt. Dave pressed the cancel button with furious determination. The VW Bug sped off from his modest suburban house. It's high G wheels speeding up and zooming past Burb beaters and Bimbo wagons. Unbeknownst to him a c…

This possibly sensationalist article [1] on Vice discusses a motorcycle airbag vest that requires a subscription to work.

[1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/93yyyd/this-motorcycle-airba...

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