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El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

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Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#691

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you even mean when you say "on fundamental level"? Fundamental properties of bitcoin are its decentralization and security achieved via and expressed in, very transparently and using very simple formula, in terms of energy expenditure, tying it unambiguously to the real world physics. No other project has such properties or comes close to the level to which those properties are achieved in bitcoin. > All of…

> Fundamental properties of bitcoin are its decentralization and security achieved via and expressed in, very transparently and using very simple formula, in terms of energy expenditure, tying it unambiguously to the real world physics. >No other project has such properties or comes close to the level to which those properties are achieved in bitcoin. There are other PoW coins. Some of those do calculation that are a…

> Some of those do calculation that are actually useful on their own. That means that there are coins with better, as you say, fundamentals.

no, getting anything valuable out of PoW function besides security of the chain is a subsidy to the attacker and lowers the security of the chain by that same amount. it also introduces unnecessary complexity, potential of bugs, point of contention over consensus rules, etc. objectively worse.

> Yes.

trade decentralization and independence for performance - bitcoin doesn't, it's the most performant and decentralized financial network in the world

lots of hype and marketing - there's barely any compared to shitcoins

lots of bells and whistles of questionable value - barely any compared to shitcoins

lots of money being made in scams and rug-pulls - zero scams perpetrated by bitcoin developers, shitcoin world is built on scams

so no, none of it aplies to bitcoin, all of it applies to shitcoins.

> Only if performance and decentralization mean something completely different in cryptocurrency than anywhere else

i don't care enough to argue with you about definitions of performance and decentralization, ultimately you decide what matters to you. what matters to me at the moment is best represented by bitcoin - security per joule, cost of attack and cost to participate. every other shitcoin is far behind.

> BTC is full of marketing campaigns, politics and other shenanigans. To claim otherwise is to ignore, or be completely oblivious, to bitcoin history and present

false. bitcoin ecosystem is full of people that will market things to you, some honest, some not very much. shitcoins on the other hand are built on and of marketing and scams. if you don't understand the difference, we can just stop here, no point to continue.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#692
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, read through this 1001st version of the argument, and finally you'll understand why it's not bogus! It's really terrible that you've been arguing with such stupid people, because it's not really that complicated to explain why bitcoin mining is a renewable energy subsidy. It's really very simple, although it involves a lot of facts you aren't acquainted with. > But that's true for renewable energy too. Nothing…

I've heard precisely these claims 1000 times. BTC is not stored energy because it cannot be converted back to energy and its creation does not increase the amount of usable raw materials available to humanity. And a future where mining is constrained by geography and friendly states absolutely obliterates any decentralization - ruining the only benefit obtained by the outrageous energy cost. Renewables are obviously…

If one converts unused 15MW hydroelectric power in Canada to bitcoin, and sends the bitcoin elsewhere, say Japan, couldn't one then buy ~ 15MW of energy? I think that's the sense people mean when they say its a store of energy.

However, I'm not sure that's any different than saying that money (in general, not just bitcoin) is a store of energy. The difference here may be that the remote hydroelectric in Canada may not have had market demand for 15MW extra, thus it would have been wasted had it not been converted into bitcoin; that's something not all traditional moneys can do.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, their job is to maintain inflation as close to 2% as possible.

Indeed, it's the same thing.

2% inflation is not a real problem. It's preferable to a situation where the official currency would have a 0% inflation.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#694
post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's important to note that El Salvador's currency is the US dollar. WU doesn't even need to convert currency. They are simply taking up to 10% from a low-earning demographic group in the US just because they can. Even if bitcoinization itself "fails", if it forces WU to lower its fees it'll do net good. Among U.S. Hispanics and Salvadorans, the median annual personal earnings for those ages 16 and older was $25,000.…

Interestingly Bitcoin can’t really “fail” in the conventional sense. It won’t go bankrupt and isn’t beholden to profits. It will be an interesting experiment

I think if it plummeted to fractions of a dollar it would be considered a failure. Especially if they spent millions on something now worth a few dollars.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#695

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard precisely these claims 1000 times. BTC is not stored energy because it cannot be converted back to energy and its creation does not increase the amount of usable raw materials available to humanity. And a future where mining is constrained by geography and friendly states absolutely obliterates any decentralization - ruining the only benefit obtained by the outrageous energy cost. Renewables are obviously…

If one converts unused 15MW hydroelectric power in Canada to bitcoin, and sends the bitcoin elsewhere, say Japan, couldn't one then buy ~ 15MW of energy? I think that's the sense people mean when they say its a store of energy. However, I'm not sure that's any different than saying that money (in general, not just bitcoin) is a store of energy. The difference here may be that the remote hydroelectric in Canada may no…

Buying 15MW of energy does not undo the cost to the planet if that energy is produced with carbon. The entire planet needs to drop to near zero total emissions. Something resembling carbon arbitrage does not push towards this goal. Firing up the geothermal generator in Iceland to mine BTC just produces BTC. And more BTC is not a resource that changes the productive behavior of the planet.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#696

Amazingly shortsighted. The primary beneficiaries of this will be organised crime, who will now be able to wash the Bitcoin via El Salvador to convert it to dollars, which they can use to buy trade items and export the profits. The number one export of El Salvador is actually people. If they were concerned about remittance fees they could just set up a bank in the US with low fees, instead of getting kickbacks from O…

There was a quote recently from a high ranking former FBI agent that worked on money laundering where she said she wasn't really concerned about crypto making money laundering worse (trying to find the article again). Her reasoning was: "what people need to understand is, 95% of money laundering with fiat currency already succeeds today without getting caught." In other words, this won't really change much, it was al…

Also shortsighted. With increased ability to convert between hard currency and bitcoin it will be more practical for criminals to move large amounts of cash. The overhead of existing money laundering is significant -- the expression "follow the money" exists because it's a useful attack on criminal activities.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#697

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For facebook, it was decimating any local ISP growth by snatching their market When the hated big guys move, there is always the suspect that somehow, somewhere, somebody else could have done it better, or with less externalities or with less publicity or with less branding or in a way that it's local. It's not the act itself which troubles people. People will always find a way to hate on Zuckerberg, Bezos, Brin or…

If we dismiss all corporate criticism as just another inevitability, then corporations will run unchecked without any criticism. I'm also not sure what Netscape has to do with decimating a developing country's economic infrastructure either. It's well known that free models, like those of Tom's Shoes, hurt developing economies more than they aid them, so much that even Tom's eventually switched their model. https://k…

> If we dismiss all corporate criticism as just another inevitability, then corporations will run unchecked without any criticism

Who needs criticism when you are in control of B2 bombers? Let corporations play, let them compete and give them free reign, while remaining chill knowing that you always have the last resort option to tame them: violence in the form of B2 bombers

I'd be worried much more about the public officials who are in control of the aforementioned B2 bombers and should use them for the benefit of Americans.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#698
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's true for renewable energy too. Nothing about the two energy sources are different. Either energy prices are decoupled from mining rewards, in which case reduced prices of either fossil fuels or renewables (or increased price of BTC) means more profit for miners or energy prices are coupled to mining rewards, in which case changing prices of fossil fuels or renewables means nothing to miners. Please tell me…

Well, read through this 1001st version of the argument, and finally you'll understand why it's not bogus! It's really terrible that you've been arguing with such stupid people, because it's not really that complicated to explain why bitcoin mining is a renewable energy subsidy. It's really very simple, although it involves a lot of facts you aren't acquainted with. > But that's true for renewable energy too. Nothing…

This is a nice response. Thank you for sharing.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#699
post #685
post #658

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope, although the fake currency transfer rates that are the big obstacle here are structurally similar in their economic impact to prohibitively-high export tariffs, they aren't actually taxes; they don't go to the Treasury but to the Central Bank, and so they don't pay for social services but rather to subsidize imports, further hollowing out the Argentine economy and destroying our competitiveness. But the evidenc…

>Nope, although the fake currency transfer rates that are the big obstacle here are structurally similar in their economic impact to prohibitively-high export tariffs, they aren't actually taxes; they don't go to the Treasury but to the Central Bank, and so they don't pay for social services but rather to subsidize imports, further hollowing out the Argentine economy and destroying our competitiveness. But the eviden…

> you are circumventing local laws and taxes while living in Argentina by using Bitcoin. TransferWise and Paypal may not work in Argentina (I'm pretty sure TW works but just doesn't offer you a favorable exchange rate), but you could still receive a normal bank transaction from abroad and sell your dollars cheaper as stipulated by the laws in the country you choose to live in.

I can't receive a normal bank transaction without a bank account, and my experiences trying to open an Argentine bank account have been very disappointing, though admittedly I haven't tried in many years. https://pirlutravel.com/transferwise/ claims TransferWise no longer works in Argentina, since January 02020; I haven't tried it myself.

At present there are no local laws or taxes specifically on Bitcoin, so I'm not actually breaking them by receiving Bitcoin (though I am breaking laws by working for a living), but a charitable reading of your comment is that Bitcoin, like Western Union, is a loophole in the laws. And I think that's plausible.

> Not true. Illegal immigrants can be registered as autonomous workers

That's good news! But it contradicts what the clerk at AFIP told me last time I tried to get a CUIT; they told me I needed to regularize my immigration status first. Maybe the policy has changed since then. (Or maybe the clerk made a mistake—but mistakes made by clerks at AFIP still amount to law enforcement decisions.)

> Also, the VAT is not the lion's share of tax collection in Argentina, but income taxes.

So, it turns out that this is sort of false, but also sort of true, in a way I hadn't appreciated. https://www.cronista.com/economia-politica/Presupuesto-2021-... says the estimate for 02021 is that the IVA (VAT) is 28.9% of the federal budget, while the impuesto en ganancias (including both corporate income taxes and personal income tax) is 20.1%. It also has monotributo impositivo (the "autonomous worker fees" you mention) at 0.39%. So personal income tax stricto sensu is much smaller than the VAT.

(The vast majority of Argentine workers don't make enough to be subject to the income tax; with the recent legal reforms, as I understand it, the threshold has been raised to $150000 per month, excluding 90% of the workers in Argentina. Historically I would sometimes have made that much money, but it's been a long time.)

However, social-security contributions are 22.8% of the federal budget; in theory those contributions are not really "income taxes" in the sense that instead they fund your retirement, and when I had set up an Argentine company, we didn't have to pay them—we paid into a private retirement fund instead. But that legal option no longer exists, and unlike a private retirement fund, the government is not prudently investing those contributions in carefully managed investments that will ensure its solvency when I retire; it's just spending them. So in fact those contributions are income tax in all but name. And maybe that's what you meant. If you add social-security contributions together with the actual legal personal income tax, the sum is as big as IVA, or maybe even a little bigger.

If we're getting into real taxation versus de jure taxation, though, most of the government's budget comes from printing money, which in real terms is a tax on anyone holding pesos.

> I'm Argentinian. I simply chose to migrate away to a country without stupid taxes or laws rather than having an unfair advantage over my countrymen

I came here to help develop Argentina's economy with my skills and understand the reality of the world system. I have contributed to Argentina's human capital by teaching people my skills, by collaborating on projects, by giving talks, and most importantly through one-on-one mentorship; by exporting my services, I bring money into Argentina which is then ultimately used to pay down Argentina's foreign debt and for importation of urgently-needed goods and services. It's deeply unfortunate that Argentina's government puts obstacles in my way at every turn, but so far that hasn't stopped me, just injured me, and given me a much deeper understanding of the origins of poverty. But I am confident that every Argentine is better off, if only infinitesimally, because I am here—even if the government won't let me directly pay into the retirement fund como corresponde.

Even though I am living in poverty without access to adequate health care or banking and cannot visit my family, there are always people who will criticize me for having "unfair advantages" because they think I ought to be living in even worse straits. (It's a little unusual when the person criticizing me for those material advantages is in a much better material situation than I am, as in this case.) But I don't think worsening my situation is actually the way to improve the situation. Instead we should build civil society, human capital, and institutional infrastructure that are capable of lifting us out of the poverty trap our history has put us in.

You have probably made the best choice from a selfish perspective in leaving, but from the point of view of the Argentine project, I wish you were also here helping us out, because it's really hard to develop an intellectual community that can nurture nascent programmers when the best and brightest constantly move abroad. But who knows—even if you aren't teaching people in Argentina to program, maybe you're bringing more money into the country (via family remittances) than I am? (One of the Argentines I mentored is doing so.)

If so, what money transfer service do you use?

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#700
post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> receiving money from N26 gets a 3 EUR fee again If the payee has a Greek bank account I suppose? But then it means that if both payer and payee have a n26 bank account and use it in Greece, they don't have to pay this fee anymore, right? So why would they use Greek banks? I just don't see how this 3 EUR fee still exists given the current competition.

> If the payee has a Greek bank account I suppose? But then it means that if both payer and payee have a n26 bank account and use it in Greece, they don't have to pay this fee anymore, right? So why would they use Greek banks? Indeed! I think Greek banks are just running on inertia now, they'll soon have to abolish these fees. One thing keeping people from switching was ATM usage (N26 only lets you withdraw for free…

Ok I see. Yes you're right, needing cash also helps incumbents, ATM operators can also charge whatever they want when you withdraw. Let's hope these fees disappear soon.
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