What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour • Hacker News Board

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#141

Post by croon » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 7:58 AM UTC

sofixa wrote: post #133

croon wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sometimes buying is better than renting. But sometimes there are economies of centralization. AWS isn't a scam on companies too poor to buy servers. Your example doesn't apply. You don't rent a server from AWS, you pay for their services. If the AWS cost was just getting you a VPS, then you would have a point. I'm not saying AWS is (always) a good deal, but the cost is quantifiable, compared to buying a server or r…

Well, in this case, you're renting access to VW's autonomous driving service, which presumably comes with constant updates and improvements and humans behind to intervene in case of necessity ( à la Waymo).

> Well, in this case, you're renting access to VW's autonomous driving service which presumably comes with constant updates and improvements

Yes, which can be bought elsewhere, which was the entire point.

> and humans behind to intervene in case of necessity ( à la Waymo).

I have no idea, does it?

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#142

Post by soco » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:00 AM UTC

toss1 wrote: post #131

hyperhopper wrote: post #62

> In a swipe at Tesla, he said that by charging hourly fees, VW would make autonomous driving more accessible than “a car with a five-digit surcharge.” This is completely disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst. This is a perfect example of the boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness [1]. This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over…

If there were no way to turn it off so any driving cost $8.50/hr, I'd be with you. But if it can be turned off and I can just drive as today as with a normal car, and I'm not paying any extra for the idle feature set, where's the problem? With the current state of autonomous driving, I'd never use it anyway. No feature I've read about is good enough to just sleep in the backseat. Expecting the driver to be 90%+ idle…

I'm afraid the single model market is the way of the future. Why wouldn't VW bank on the same enslaving system all other corporations so easily get away with? Other commenters talk about going to the competition if we're unhappy - except the entire competition does exactly the same so there's no alternative. A market opening, would say some? No there's none, the subscription model is too profitable for any CEO to even bother imagining an alternative.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#143

Post by dvfjsdhgfv » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

hyperhopper wrote: post #62

> In a swipe at Tesla, he said that by charging hourly fees, VW would make autonomous driving more accessible than “a car with a five-digit surcharge.” This is completely disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst. This is a perfect example of the boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness [1]. This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over…

> This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over a larger period of time.

At least you still have a choice. In the software world, this freedom of choice is coming to an end, with Microsoft, Adobe, Autodesk and many others discontinuing "pay once own forever" products.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#144

Post by murukesh_s » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

HWR_14 wrote: post #83

balls187 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At 8.50/hr, that gives you about ~53,000 miles of autonomous range for the same price as Tesla's add-on price for "full self driving ($10k surcharge). To me, an upfront $10,000 surcharge seems less scammy than what VW is offering, despite it likely being cheaper over the lifetime of the vehicle.

I consider Tesla's $10,000 surcharge (that may reset when you sell the used car) to be quite scammy as well. I doubt I'll ever own a self-driving car, because I will never pay that kind of premium for full self driving. Either on an hourly basis or up front. Frankly, it seems cheaper just not have a car and to hail a cab/uber/lyft whenever I need one.

how about when you see everyone else is enjoying a beer while driving, or in more advanced versions don't even have driving seat.. ? its starting a trend and the price that Tesla and VW put will become the base pricing

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#145

Post by hughrr » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

tails4e wrote: post #134

hughrr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much this. I hope I don't stand on too many toes here. Actually I don't care. My father has a self driving enabled Tesla Model S which he paid a hell of a lot of money for that he doesn't have as he's in his 70s, living entirely off the remains of the house he just sold. He's convinced it'll be any day now that he gets full self driving and that it'll change the world. He tells me he loves the car and phones me da…

If you leave the self driving aside, the model s is an amazing car. Compared with a high end bmw/merc/audi you get more features as standard - though I do admit the finish/build quality on those cars is superior. I have a 4 year old MS, and genuinely like it and love the acceleration/nimbleness and have experienced very few issues. I'd consider tesla again for my next car, but FSD would not be a factor either way.

I don’t buy on features myself because quite frankly every damn car I’ve hired or bought which has anything other than basic features is chock full of bugs and has to be fixed every two minutes. Auto companies just can’t and shouldn’t write any high level software at all and low level embedded stuff is even pretty awful. They just can’t support it properly. Tesla are a notable exception to this as in they actually offer OTA updates to their vehicles but the general rule is a big stinking thumbs down.

I mean the worst of this is the Range Rover I hired for a wedding to drive the bride in. Headlights gave out due to an electrical problem with CANbus when I was driving it back to the hire return. Just give me some fuses, switches and relays thanks.

My iPhone has 100x better navigation, media and communications support than anything else I’ve used. So I just slave it to the car with BT. I don’t even use CarPlay because bugs (Ford, Land Rover, Citroen in particular).

Keep the software and hardware separate and keep the hardware simple.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#146

Post by hughrr » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

SV_BubbleTime wrote: post #98

hughrr wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much this. I hope I don't stand on too many toes here. Actually I don't care. My father has a self driving enabled Tesla Model S which he paid a hell of a lot of money for that he doesn't have as he's in his 70s, living entirely off the remains of the house he just sold. He's convinced it'll be any day now that he gets full self driving and that it'll change the world. He tells me he loves the car and phones me da…

I was working for a tier-1 supplier in Detroit when Tesla announced their first car that wasn’t the lotus body, a vp at a supplier laughed and said “they’re about to find out how hard it is to build cars”. This guy knew cars and every time I hear someone with negative feedback on Tesla’s I think about that. I’ve heard more people describe it as “a computer with wheels” than I can remember.

Yep. This.

I’m even more sharp with the description. It’s a no brand android tablet with wheels.

My Citroen feels better put together and it’s made of cooking foil.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#147

Post by yazaddaruvala » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:05 AM UTC

badestrand wrote: post #75

flyGuyOnTheSly wrote: post #11

This would be ideal for myself. I spend $1500/year on insurance and about $1000 in gas on a car I barely ever drive. I am slow to get ready and leave the house as well. If this thing could just show up at my doorstep and drive me to the grocery store and back every couple of weeks for a few dollars that would be incredible! Plus I don't have to make smalltalk with a driver, bonus! Not to mention the space I would sav…

The costs are just to enable the feature on the fly in the car you already own, so you will still need to buy gas and insurance.

If the passenger still needs insurance, then the self-driving is not worth paying for.

Would you pay for or use Uber if you also needed car insurance to be a passenger?

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#148

Post by VintageCool » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:07 AM UTC

yakshaving_jgt wrote: post #112

VintageCool wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are also tremendously space inefficient. The Tesla Model 3 is nearly as big (93.8 sq ft) as 3 Queen Size beds (33.3 sq ft). There is the classic set of pictures showing how much space is needed to transport 60 people by bus, by bike, and by car. https://humantransit.org/2012/09/the-photo-that-explains-alm... On my (pre-covid) morning commute to the office, most of the cars crawling along the highway had one pers…

> The slowness is the result of people trying to merge into the highway, not "bad drivers". I stand by my point on "bad drivers". It's a well-studied phenomenon[0] and it's not a matter of opinion. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4m-OJosGaI

That is a mathematical model explaining one type of traffic jam - the "phantom" traffic jam. It can explain a traffic jam on a straight section of highway with no entrances or exits -- but imagine what would happen to that model if a second line of traffic with the same density of cars tried to merge in!

According to a 2005 report for the Federal Highway Administration, the leading cause of congestion is bottlenecked infrastructure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_congestion#Causes

I used to drive 405 North into Bellevue, WA. In the space of 3 miles, 3 highways merged into 405 North. There was always a traffic jam, every morning. It started at roughly the same spot every morning. It cleared up at roughly the same spot every morning. That was slow traffic caused by the infrastructure.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#149

Post by toast0 » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:09 AM UTC

mnahkies wrote: post #132

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers For someone who only occasionally needs heated seats, this is value adding. I agree that forcing everyone into a subscription is coercive. But there are a lot of people for whom the flexibility of a subscript…

With a SASS product you're paying for ongoing access to a service with continuous improvements and a cost to the company to continue providing you. With heated seats the hardware to provide the functionality was either fitted or not, once it leaves the factory it's static and so it seems pretty unreasonable to me to charge an ongoing fee for the privilege. A world where my car gets micro-transactions to turn on the A…

Tesla seems to be doing a lot of continuous development and the costs for that have to come from somewhere.

If a car company would charge me per day for heated seats, that would work for me, I don't use them that often. If they make me pay per year and they're installed in the car already... They've given me a nice electronics challenge, which adds value?

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#150

Post by DaiPlusPlus » Thu, Jun 10, 2021, 8:09 AM UTC

nix23 wrote: post #117

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is 100% a way to extract more money from consumers, especially non financially stable consumers, while lying to all of our faces Isn't this hyperbolic? I split time between at least two cities. Being able to pay as I go represents a real saving in cost, time and attention. Sometimes buying is better than renting. But sometimes there are economies of centralization. AWS isn't a scam on companies too poor to buy…

>AWS isn't a scam on companies too poor to buy servers. It often is, for small and medium business (traditional ones) it's often cheaper to rent DC-Space and buy some servers yourself...but hey if you pay and don't do the math, that's your problem.

Physical co-lo is only cheaper if your time is worthless (ditto for Linux-on-the-corporate-desktop, or anything else that’s nominatively gratis).

My current SaaS gig runs in Azure (App Services and containers - no VMs nor “serverless”) and being completely free of the need to do sysadmin work is just so nice. When I was colocating my own rack about a decade ago there was always something that needed my attention, be it security updates, some new unexpected error in the syslogs, RAID drive failing, etc - that I’d need to commute to the DC an hour away or pay the DC’s helping-hands fees. Back when I was younger it was fun and valuable to gain those experiences, but right now I’m a west-coast SWE and no employer wants me to spend my time doing sysadmin/SRE work when my time is literally worth ten times more doing product work and letting MS’ Azure staff keeping things humming along.

For high-availability, AWS/Azure/GCP all the way! There’s no way a micro-ISV SaaS vendor can compete if they have to burn cycles doing unprofitable infrastructure work.