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What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

arstechnica.com

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Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#131

Post by toss1 »

hyperhopper wrote: post #62

> In a swipe at Tesla, he said that by charging hourly fees, VW would make autonomous driving more accessible than “a car with a five-digit surcharge.” This is completely disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst. This is a perfect example of the boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness [1]. This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over…

If there were no way to turn it off so any driving cost $8.50/hr, I'd be with you.

But if it can be turned off and I can just drive as today as with a normal car, and I'm not paying any extra for the idle feature set, where's the problem?

With the current state of autonomous driving, I'd never use it anyway. No feature I've read about is good enough to just sleep in the backseat. Expecting the driver to be 90%+ idle then, when the "autopilot" fails and I must get instantly up to speed on the full context and state of the car, is both a recipe for disaster and would make me a very nervous driver/passenger (especially when I know that it would fail to recognize things like a semi-truck parked sideways across the road or a lane-splitting concrete barrier dead-ahead).

When and if a true and trustworthy autopilot is available, I'd likely prefer a per hour charge. I'd use it only when I really needed it, such as when I really need the time to keep working on this commute, or I'm really tired and think it's safer to be driven home.

As long as there is variety available in the market, this seems like a find option to have. At some point, when I find myself using it a lot, then it's time to go out and buy a car like a Tesla where it's just included as a package. Of course, if VW are smart, they'll also offer a single-price or monthly fee 'Full-Time Self-Drive' package, so I don't need to go to a competitor to get it.

OTOH, if the industry starts to look like internet security cameras or thermostats, where the there is nothing but a subscription, or televisions where there is almost no way to just get a non-'connected' monitor, I'm totally with you -- this would be a horrible example of exploitative, extractive, rent-seeking corporate behavior.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#132

Post by mnahkies »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #126
gambiting wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same argument that BMW made, and it's just as faulty here. They said that instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers - isn't that great??? I hate this argument with a burning passion though, it's turning ownership into subscription only to extr…

> instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers For someone who only occasionally needs heated seats, this is value adding. I agree that forcing everyone into a subscription is coercive. But there are a lot of people for whom the flexibility of a subscript…

With a SASS product you're paying for ongoing access to a service with continuous improvements and a cost to the company to continue providing you.

With heated seats the hardware to provide the functionality was either fitted or not, once it leaves the factory it's static and so it seems pretty unreasonable to me to charge an ongoing fee for the privilege.

A world where my car gets micro-transactions to turn on the AC or heaters etc scares me.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#133

Post by sofixa »

croon wrote: post #119
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is 100% a way to extract more money from consumers, especially non financially stable consumers, while lying to all of our faces Isn't this hyperbolic? I split time between at least two cities. Being able to pay as I go represents a real saving in cost, time and attention. Sometimes buying is better than renting. But sometimes there are economies of centralization. AWS isn't a scam on companies too poor to buy…

> Sometimes buying is better than renting. But sometimes there are economies of centralization. AWS isn't a scam on companies too poor to buy servers. Your example doesn't apply. You don't rent a server from AWS, you pay for their services. If the AWS cost was just getting you a VPS, then you would have a point. I'm not saying AWS is (always) a good deal, but the cost is quantifiable, compared to buying a server or r…

Well, in this case, you're renting access to VW's autonomous driving service, which presumably comes with constant updates and improvements and humans behind to intervene in case of necessity ( à la Waymo).

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#134

Post by tails4e »

hughrr wrote: post #89
tempestn wrote: post #49

Having finally had a chance to test-"drive" an advanced autopilot Tesla last weekend, I can confidently say at the current level of that tech I would pay less than nothing. At best (cruising down a well-marked highway) it was only slightly worse than useless, taking a different line in the lane than I considered optimal, leaving me feeling a background level of apprehension. From there it ranged through frustrating,…

So much this. I hope I don't stand on too many toes here. Actually I don't care. My father has a self driving enabled Tesla Model S which he paid a hell of a lot of money for that he doesn't have as he's in his 70s, living entirely off the remains of the house he just sold. He's convinced it'll be any day now that he gets full self driving and that it'll change the world. He tells me he loves the car and phones me da…

If you leave the self driving aside, the model s is an amazing car. Compared with a high end bmw/merc/audi you get more features as standard - though I do admit the finish/build quality on those cars is superior. I have a 4 year old MS, and genuinely like it and love the acceleration/nimbleness and have experienced very few issues. I'd consider tesla again for my next car, but FSD would not be a factor either way.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#135

Post by Animats »

mlang23 wrote: post #107

This is sci-fi. AVs are not there yet. And they will not be there for some time to come. Since Google started their damn AV-car-project back around 2014 (or was it even earlier) mainstream media is full of sci-fi. I had to explain to many people that what media is waiving infront of their noses is not something they will be able to consume in the next years. I really wonder why media is so sci-fi-heavy recently. Mayb…

In the more advanced cities, self-driving taxis are here.[1] Shenzhen, where else? Watch it make an unprotected left turn through an intersection cluttered with motorcycles, tuk-tuks, cars, and a mobile crane.

WeRide has many videos of their self-driving cars. The production ones have no driver and are used on major roads. The experimental ones have a safety driver and struggle through urban villages with people, bikes, and cars all over the street.

[1] https://youtu.be/O69YEWpSacU

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#136

Post by Mashimo »

hyperhopper wrote: post #62

> In a swipe at Tesla, he said that by charging hourly fees, VW would make autonomous driving more accessible than “a car with a five-digit surcharge.” This is completely disingenuous at best, and malicious at worst. This is a perfect example of the boots theory of socioeconomic unfairness [1]. This is just taking advantage of the poor-middle class' inability to pay a larger upfront cost, to extort them for more over…

Could be decent for people who only want to use autonomous driving on occasion, not with every commute.

Keep in mind this is a German taking to a German magazine, US business model might be different (But probably not)

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#137

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mnahkies wrote: post #132
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers For someone who only occasionally needs heated seats, this is value adding. I agree that forcing everyone into a subscription is coercive. But there are a lot of people for whom the flexibility of a subscript…

With a SASS product you're paying for ongoing access to a service with continuous improvements and a cost to the company to continue providing you. With heated seats the hardware to provide the functionality was either fitted or not, once it leaves the factory it's static and so it seems pretty unreasonable to me to charge an ongoing fee for the privilege. A world where my car gets micro-transactions to turn on the A…

> you're paying for ongoing access to a service with continuous improvements and a cost to the company to continue providing you

Why wouldn’t this apply to an autonomous driving service?

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#138

Post by soco »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #126
gambiting wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's the same argument that BMW made, and it's just as faulty here. They said that instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers - isn't that great??? I hate this argument with a burning passion though, it's turning ownership into subscription only to extr…

> instead of paying $500 upfront for heated seats, they will be available as an annual unlock for say $100/year. Since they know an average owner keeps a new BMW for only 3 years, this is a saving for new buyers For someone who only occasionally needs heated seats, this is value adding. I agree that forcing everyone into a subscription is coercive. But there are a lot of people for whom the flexibility of a subscript…

Occasionally needing? As in, one year they are needed and another year not? Because I can't see this argument working otherwise - heated seats cost 100$ a year, period.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#139

Post by blhack »

gitanovic wrote: post #113
mlyle wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, to me it looks pretty good. And there's reason to believe it'd be better on freeways. I'd definitely pay a few bucks per hour for my car to drive me to Southern California while I read a book.

What I don't understand is: why don't you take a train instead? I have never been to US, but whenever I hear about self driving cars I think: why don't people just use public transport if they don't want to drive?

It’s too much of a hassle to use public transportation.

With your own car you can bring as much stuff as you want, stop where you want, leave when you want, go wherever you want at your destination, bring whoever you want, listen to what you want on the radio, stop where you want for side trips/tourist things along the way etc.

Like for instance with my own car instead of a shared train, I can bring my golf clubs, my dog, and my drone with me, and call my friend on the way out of town to see if he’s up for a spontaneous trip to San Diego to see what fun we could get up to there for the weekend. That’s not really possible on a train/airplane.

It’s just a totally different experience than arriving to a train station with some limited set of your things, possibly being late, then arriving somewhere else again without a car, and having to return again by doing all of this in reverse.

It also means spending time forced to socialize with people you don’t know, and almost definitely in a seat that is less comfortable than the one in your $100k luxury car.

Re: What would you pay for autonomous driving? Volkswagen hopes $8.50 per hour

#140

Post by piceas »

The linked welt.de article's headline is 7€/h.

Minimum wage in Germany this year is 9.50€. Median wage in 2018 was about 16.50€.

https://www.destatis.de/EN/Press/2020/10/PE20_416_623.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_minimum_w...

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