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iOS 15 Humane

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Re: iOS 15 Humane

#111

Post by donkeyd »

sneak wrote: post #106
donkeyd wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Infinite scroll is not on the list. I you want a discussion of semantics then... Wikipedia defines dark patterns as: "A dark pattern is a user interface that has been carefully crafted to trick users into doing things". Infinite scroll in many cases obviously fits this category as it tricks people into spending more time in an app. Fast company actually calls it the most prevalent dark pattern in this article: http…

Infinite scroll isn't a trick. It gives the user precisely what they indicated they want: more content. If it took them to a different view, or made a purchase, or caused some negative side effect that the user then has to engage with to cancel, then it would be subterfuge. Giving the user more of what they explicitly desired (and provided user input to request in the form of a swipe up) is the opposite of a dark pat…

> Infinite scroll isn't a trick. It gives the user precisely what they indicated they want: more content.

I actually added a source that says that infinite scroll can be considered a prevalent dark pattern. I think this will become a useless discussion because there's no clearly defined definition of what is and isn't a dark pattern and I think that in the end it's how the user experiences it. To me it's a dark pattern, because I don't want to scroll infinitely, but I do it anyway. To you it isn't because it gives you precisely what you want. The only solution seems to agree to disagree.

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#112

Post by asauce »

Crazyontap wrote: post #49

Even though this article is sarcastic(?) I can't help but get genuinely angry at these trillion dollar companies thinking they know what is better for us and trying to control and police everything. This is even worse than govt censoring porn and cuss-words back in the day thinking they know what is moral for the society. I was just talking to a friend the other day on how badly Apple and Google are trying their best…

This comment fails to see the real reason that Apple, Google, and Microsoft lock down their hardware and software, ease of use.

A vast, vast majority of the population could care less about learning about interrupts, tinkering with BIOS settings, etc. They want a device that is easy to use, and as simple as possible. So companies therefore abstract away 90% of the "creativity-inducing" components because a computer is a lot less intimidating when the user clearly knows what they can and can't do with it.

Apple and Google are not sitting in a meeting room pitching the best ways to stifle creativity. They are selling a product to a population that wants their highly complex device to be as simple as possible.

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#113

Post by p49k »

boudin wrote: post #88
camillomiller wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another peak self-absorbed Hacker News comment, in which we learn that curiosity only means tinkering with devices, learning how they work to the bits, plus some random Linux thrown in. This comment is ignoring that a device that does all that without you having to worry about how it works is a tool way more powerful than one in which you need to at least know how to build everything from scratch with an enormous lea…

Why do you make the assumption that a device with freedom would be a device to worry about? This is exactlty what the op is saying. The Apple narrative of "we have full control over your device and your software for your own good" is horrible and worrying. I'm not gonna make a parallel about Apple source of inspiration but it doesn't scream creativity, freedom and certainly not democracy.

Apple’s approach is pragmatic. If they offered anyone the ability to jailbreak, you would see major app makers manipulating naive users into jailbreaking in order to bypass security, payment restrictions or similar. Even the limited options Apple provides are already abused, such as Facebook convincing users to install VPN profiles with their Ovano product and abusing it to spy on users.

Having the option defeats the fundamental advantages their approach offers.

There are a lot of problems with Apple’s approach from an antitrust perspective and fair competition should be regulated through legislation, but there are good reasons for closed ecosystems to exist and plenty of great alternatives for people who want something more open.

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#114

Post by Ar-Curunir »

superasn wrote: post #89
BluSyn wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Using "security" in air quotes diminishes the significant effort Apple and others put into making devices secure, and this does have fundamental trade-offs for the end-user. Some of us actually care a great deal about security, and appreciate the trade-offs and effort put in to making that happen. I sympathize with the tinkerer mindset, but this mindset exposes serious lack of empathy in exposing REAL risk to REAL pe…

Sometimes one in that 0.01% end up creating a world changing operating system like Linux. I shudder to think what the world would have be if Andrew Tanenbaum/Linus/Wall/etc had to wait for a week long review after creating their software and got rejected every time because Apple support told them.. "Are you out of your freaking mind!? You possibly can't think we will let you do anything remotely like that on our hard…

There’s plenty of hardware that runs Linux just fine, and allows deep tinkering.

In the mobile world, Android allows tinkering, but also achieves much worse privacy and security guarantees

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#115

Post by collectiveness »

camillomiller wrote: post #68
Crazyontap wrote: post #49

Even though this article is sarcastic(?) I can't help but get genuinely angry at these trillion dollar companies thinking they know what is better for us and trying to control and police everything. This is even worse than govt censoring porn and cuss-words back in the day thinking they know what is moral for the society. I was just talking to a friend the other day on how badly Apple and Google are trying their best…

Another peak self-absorbed Hacker News comment, in which we learn that curiosity only means tinkering with devices, learning how they work to the bits, plus some random Linux thrown in. This comment is ignoring that a device that does all that without you having to worry about how it works is a tool way more powerful than one in which you need to at least know how to build everything from scratch with an enormous lea…

I think you are mixing up "not having to worry about how it works" with "having the freedom to tinker". We should demand both. One reason is for our curiosity. The other is to have checks and balances on the big companies.

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#116

Post by Ar-Curunir »

underwater wrote: post #53
deanclatworthy wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I want control over what I do, not a random program deciding what I should do. So ask the user once if they want to be reminded? You might not feel like social media is a toxic influence over your life but many people do.

Some people feel like television, and phones in general, are bad influences. Should Apple build in reminders for their first party products, too. A popup telling you that talking on the phone for three hours a day is bad for you, or that encourages you to not binge on that TV series?

Those things all exist…

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#117

Post by blackoil »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #99
otabdeveloper4 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You missed his point. BigTech is trying to make open computer hardware and software illegal, because "security". That is a loss for everyone, even if tinkering with computers is not your hobby.

> BigTech is trying to make open computer hardware and software illegal, because "security". I wonder what they stand to gain from this, since they wouldn't bother if there wasn't a benefit. Android I can possibly understand, what with Google being an ad-company and expecting to track users. But Apple doesn't seem to be doing that all that much anymore. For the tractor situation, John Deere & friends expect to captur…

Apple is not in biz of selling phone or laptop. They sell complete ecosystem. If you own an iPhone, airpod are magical, AirTag/iCloud makes sense. Why not also buy Macbook to tinker with own apps and an iPad when you need pencil/touch. And not just current, you also capture all future innovation, so you can charge for digital downloads. You can make new rules to charge for all digital transactions across all apps.

What you are suggesting is to allow 3rd party to join in the ecosystem.

If IBM had been smarter and launched PC as a closed platform it would have been a 10/100 trillion dollar enterprise.

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#118

Post by collectiveness »

p49k wrote: post #113
boudin wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you make the assumption that a device with freedom would be a device to worry about? This is exactlty what the op is saying. The Apple narrative of "we have full control over your device and your software for your own good" is horrible and worrying. I'm not gonna make a parallel about Apple source of inspiration but it doesn't scream creativity, freedom and certainly not democracy.

Apple’s approach is pragmatic. If they offered anyone the ability to jailbreak, you would see major app makers manipulating naive users into jailbreaking in order to bypass security, payment restrictions or similar. Even the limited options Apple provides are already abused, such as Facebook convincing users to install VPN profiles with their Ovano product and abusing it to spy on users. Having the option defeats the…

At what point do we need to start worrying about Apple holding too much power over their closed ecosystem and can potentially abuse it?

Re: iOS 15 Humane

#120

Post by bb101 »

Has anyone else tried the app "Friendly"? For a while I've wanted to stop using Facebook, but quite a few community groups I'm involved with use it as their only method of communication. Friendly is an augmented wrapper for the mobile web versions of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn and a few of the other time-sappers.

I find it works really well. I still get to use an app to access the information in an convenient way, but without the bells and whistles that make hours pass like minutes, and without having to give the platforms access to my phone's metadata. Downside: it is clunkier than the respective apps, but then that's the point.

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