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El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

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Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#681
post #96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a smaller problem? It is fairly trivially traced on a transparent blockchain whereas cash is not.

Yes, it's a smaller problem to lose even all your ransom money, than to be physically captured and put in jail for decades. Can't we just agree on that? Also "fairly trivially traced" can be naive. Here's one scenario from a million possible scenarios. You hate politician John Doe and happen to know me. I have a stash of millions in ransom money on my public anonymous wallet. So I start sending money to organizations…

If your end goal is to get to cash it's quite difficult without doxxing yourself. For eg. imagine you do a ransomware hack, you have a BTC address with the BTC on it. Law enforcement as well as the company hacked both know the address. From that point they can follow where the money goes, it really doesn't matter how many different ways you elaborately transact.

You might try and run the BTC through a coin mixer however these attract attention and afaik are unreliable against an opponent like Chainalysis.

You can send the BTC to an exchange like Binance where you have not done KYC, however two issues with that. Firstly, law enforcement can contact the exchange and request halting the account. Secondly, without KYC you'll have very low daily limits and it will likely take a while before you can swap the BTC into something more private like XMR.

All your examples don't consider that we can trivially follow a wallet, get notifications when it does something and follow where the money goes. Yes law enforcement could absolutely knock on the doors of organisations that receive tainted BTC.

Speaking of global fracturing, partially true but I would still ask how do you intend to cash out? The only way that would work would be on a p2p website where you can directly sell to other users. This won't work if your somewhere off the map where there is not a lot of wealth. And somewhere where there is wealth you open yourself up to being caught if you have many large swaps.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#682

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It may be fine for the faith in banking structures, but it's not that great it you like your dollars to hold value.

I don’t particularly want my dollars to “hold value”. I want currency to be useful as currency; I want my investments to hold value. The two things serve different functions, and I don't want investments compromised to be useful as currency or vice versa.

> I don’t particularly want my dollars to “hold value”

Sure, but would you really rather your dollars "lose value" as in they can purchase less and less goods and services over time? How does that benefit you personally?

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#683

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This already is the case in the Netherlands. Don’t you understand? The system is broken

No I don't understand.

Here in NL, everybody is "entitled" to a bank account. However, banks can, and do, freely reject people. They will block and ban your account if they want to. For businesses it's even worse.

So even if everybody has the right to have a bank account, it just doesn't work like that.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#684
post #658
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The short answer is that Bitcoin works and TransferWise and PayPal don't. I looked into TransferWise a couple of months ago when someone else asked about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26657391 Dude, just call a spade a spade and say what you really mean: You are using bitcoin to perform tax evasion in your country because you think taxes and the economy there are unfair.

Nope, although the fake currency transfer rates that are the big obstacle here are structurally similar in their economic impact to prohibitively-high export tariffs, they aren't actually taxes; they don't go to the Treasury but to the Central Bank, and so they don't pay for social services but rather to subsidize imports, further hollowing out the Argentine economy and destroying our competitiveness. But the evidenc…

If I understand your situation correctly, you are working in Argentina, but not paying income tax because you are a non-resident, and the source of your income is outside Argentina.

In that situation, I would look into setting up an offshore corporation with a bank account to hold the income, and then get a debit card that could be used in Argentina.

This would be a hedge against the volatility of bitcoin (but maybe you see that as an advantage) and it would not require you to get cash from strangers, which I personally would be a little hesitant about, since there is a non-zero chance you are accepting dirty money and/or helping people circumvent currency controls, but I do not know the laws of Argentina, and whether or not you are violating any laws here.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#685
post #658
post #653

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The short answer is that Bitcoin works and TransferWise and PayPal don't. I looked into TransferWise a couple of months ago when someone else asked about it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26657391 Dude, just call a spade a spade and say what you really mean: You are using bitcoin to perform tax evasion in your country because you think taxes and the economy there are unfair.

Nope, although the fake currency transfer rates that are the big obstacle here are structurally similar in their economic impact to prohibitively-high export tariffs, they aren't actually taxes; they don't go to the Treasury but to the Central Bank, and so they don't pay for social services but rather to subsidize imports, further hollowing out the Argentine economy and destroying our competitiveness. But the evidenc…

>Nope, although the fake currency transfer rates that are the big obstacle here are structurally similar in their economic impact to prohibitively-high export tariffs, they aren't actually taxes; they don't go to the Treasury but to the Central Bank, and so they don't pay for social services but rather to subsidize imports, further hollowing out the Argentine economy and destroying our competitiveness. But the evidence suggests that, even if I'm willing to take the 38% haircut, TransferWise and PayPal simply don't work. They just don't have service here.

As I said on my previous post, you are circumventing local laws and taxes while living in Argentina by using Bitcoin. TransferWise and Paypal may not work in Argentina (I'm pretty sure TW works but just doesn't offer you a favorable exchange rate), but you could still receive a normal bank transaction from abroad and sell your dollars cheaper as stipulated by the laws in the country you choose to live in.

>Argentina does have a little bit of income tax, which I'm not allowed to pay (I tried, but the tax office turned me away because they don't accept income taxes from illegal immigrants), but most of the tax revenue here comes from the VAT, which I pay just like everyone else, because it's included in the price of everything. Exports of information technology services, which is what I do, are exempt from VAT. In fact, when I had a company here, before I was an illegal immigrant, I had to pay a lot of extra VAT that was supposed to get refunded, but it never was, because following that aspect of the law is too inconvenient to the government. (Because all my revenue came from exports, you see.) One accountant suggested that I bill a friend's domestic company for fake services in order to get the refund. I refused.

Not true. Illegal immigrants can be registered as autonomous workers, and since you earn in dollars you probably would fall in the 'Responsable Inscripto' category and have to pay autonomous worker fees + 35% of what you earn. You are just choosing not to. Also, the VAT is not the lion's share of tax collection in Argentina, but income taxes.

>I understand that if you've lived in a country all your life with a more or less reasonable government, all of this sounds ridiculously implausible.

I'm Argentinian. I simply chose to migrate away to a country without stupid taxes or laws rather than having an unfair advantage over my countrymen by avoiding them abusing the low-attachment-to-where-I-work-from nature of my career. The local tech scene in Argentina is filled with guys like you who avoid as many taxes as they can (except VAT, of course) using crypto or offshore accounts and then goad on the internet about it. You are lucky tax evasion is not a jail-able offence in Argentina, probably because the corrupt politicians are cut from the same cloth.

Sorry if I come across as too harsh on my opinion on tax evasion. I think it's an understandable crime in Argentina, but it somehow rubs me the wrong way when people openly discuss it like this on the internet.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greece here, transactions cost 3 EUR. I think they're possibly free if you use the same bank, but the apps are cumbersome to use and the potential for fees is a deterrent, so nobody uses them for transactions of less than hundreds of EUR.

As a EU resident, you have the right to open a bank account in any EU country, no questions asked.

You do, but I've found that some countries don't really want you, and they'll slam you with onerous KYC requirements to drive you to leave. I currently need to fill out 30 pages of documentation and have "a Skype call" with my bank "for verification".

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#687

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> well would be good to clarify, because there's no project that followed that is better on fundamental level. This is also a statement that need clarifying. What do you even mean when you say "on fundamental level"? > lots of solutions that trade decentralization and independence for performance, lots of hype and marketing, lots of bells and whistles of questionable value, lots of money being made in scams and rug-p…

> What do you even mean when you say "on fundamental level"? Fundamental properties of bitcoin are its decentralization and security achieved via and expressed in, very transparently and using very simple formula, in terms of energy expenditure, tying it unambiguously to the real world physics. No other project has such properties or comes close to the level to which those properties are achieved in bitcoin. > All of…

> Fundamental properties of bitcoin are its decentralization and security achieved via and expressed in, very transparently and using very simple formula, in terms of energy expenditure, tying it unambiguously to the real world physics. >No other project has such properties or comes close to the level to which those properties are achieved in bitcoin.

There are other PoW coins. Some of those do calculation that are actually useful on their own. That means that there are coins with better, as you say, fundamentals.

> Nope.

Yes.

> Only if you don’t understand what performance of a cryptocurrency is, or what decentralization of cryptocurrency means.

Only if performance and decentralization mean something completely different in cryptocurrency than anywhere else. If so, can you explain or provide a source that explains it that I can check.

> And independence is from marketing campaigns, politics and other shenanigans that crypto world is full of.

BTC is full of marketing campaigns, politics and other shenanigans. To claim otherwise is to ignore, or be completely oblivious, to bitcoin history and present.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#688

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am fine with EIP1559. If ETH becomes deflationary, it would still have other uses and something else can fill in the "currency" use. Intuitively (have no idea how to do this), it would be interesting to have Country's coin supply grow (approx.) with its GPD/productivity.

What happens when eth switches to PoS? everyone will be incentivized to hoard and stake to become a validator, what will incentivize spending?

APY on stacking won't be as good as today. I am not sure everyone will stake once ETH2 rewards will be around 1-2%.

ETH2 won't be deflationary because such things is nearly impossible in a PoS network. You need issuance to rewards validators. It can't be network fees because if network fees are high, the network is doom to fail.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#689

Sigh. Bitcoin BTC, at 3 transactions per second, doesn't have the capacity to support El Salvador's economy. Even if Lightning worked (it doesn't), BTC doesn't have enough capacity to open channels for users at a reasonable cost. Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. BTC is not cash anymore, it won't work as such. There are other cryptos that could work, we'll have to…

It is not hard to scale Bitcoin for millions of people for everyday transactions. You give people a custodial wallet and track the balances off-chain using a trusted third party. As long as a government is willing to allow such a service to legally operate: 1. You can easily support billions of bitcoin transactions a second since the transactions only change centralized database entries. 2. Users can send and receive…

What about using a blockchain internally within the country to manage the high throughput and still avoid centralization by relying on a single "trusted" third party?

For e.g., mining operations can be distributed within the country itself to ensure decentralization within the country. Then this internal blockchain network interfaces with the slower and more expensive bitcoin blockchain to do final settlements?

Could this work?

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting(ly sad) percentage .. I wonder how come nothing impedes their laundering that said I wonder if having another path won't make them even more hungry.. i'm sure criminals are very creative when it comes to making more money

Money laundering doesn't really make money, it just legitimize it in the financial system.

it's the way criminal groups live, without laundering they can't use what they got, so more laundering equates potentially more activity for them
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