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El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

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Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#511

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sort of. It's not entirely off chain. It's hedged in that a transaction is created sending X BTC between us, we repeatedly update that transaction off chain every time we move small amounts of money between eachother, then after Y days we submit the final transaction to the blockchain to resolve the total amounts. The idea being if one of us starts to be uncooperative, the other can just submit the transaction at its…

Most of the examples of Lightning that I've seen involve frequent transactions between small numbers of parties. How would this work in a retail transaction? For example, if I want to buy a cup of coffee from a shop that I visit infrequently?

It forms a network, where transactions are routed between LN nodes/channels. You have to be in the same graph with the coffee shop. If there are small separate subgraphs, they can be connected by one common node, such as an exchange.

So, most likely the coffee shop has just one or a few channels open to popular exchanges or dedicated LN services. You open a channel either directly or indirectly to the same exchange / service.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#512
post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, read through this 1001st version of the argument, and finally you'll understand why it's not bogus! It's really terrible that you've been arguing with such stupid people, because it's not really that complicated to explain why bitcoin mining is a renewable energy subsidy. It's really very simple, although it involves a lot of facts you aren't acquainted with. > But that's true for renewable energy too. Nothing…

I've heard precisely these claims 1000 times. BTC is not stored energy because it cannot be converted back to energy and its creation does not increase the amount of usable raw materials available to humanity. And a future where mining is constrained by geography and friendly states absolutely obliterates any decentralization - ruining the only benefit obtained by the outrageous energy cost. Renewables are obviously…

> BTC is not stored energy because it cannot be converted back to energy

Certainly not. I never claimed it was. Neither can cement, cars, porcelain, or most other products of heavy industry. Aluminum is an exception here.

> a future where mining is constrained by geography and friendly states absolutely obliterates any decentralization

I'm not sure what kind of future you're imagining here. Are you thinking that maybe Algeria will monopolize world bitcoin mining because it has 0.1% more sunlight than Chile and Saudi Arabia, so its mining costs will be 0.05% lower? That seems unlikely to me.

> Renewables are obviously not cheaper than fossil fuels in any general sense because we are still building coal and gas plants all over the world for purposes well beyond having flexible energy sources

This is in fact not true; having flexible energy sources has been the primary reason for building gas plants for decades (gas is usually more expensive and always less portable than coal), and coal plant operation and construction is being canceled all over the place. Outside PRC, not even enough coal plants are being built to replace those that are being decommissioned, and the coal industry is suffering extreme economic hardship as renewable energy replaces it through a combination of better prices and political programs.

https://chinadialogue.net/en/energy/2020-a-dismal-year-for-c... 45 GW of coal power construction cancelled in Bangladesh, Indonesia, the Philippines, and Vietnam because investors pulled out, leaving only 25 GW planned.

https://www.climatechangenews.com/2021/02/25/bangladesh-scra... details on the 7.5 GW of coal cancelations in Bangladesh.

https://balkangreenenergynews.com/europe-is-halfway-into-clo... European coal output has been cut 60% since 02000, and projections are that they'll shut down 50% of the remaining 162 plants by 02030 (though 36 new plants are being built).

https://www.eiu.com/industry/article/589070442/europe-coal-u... In 02018 European coal power output was 619 TWh/year (71 GW), down 24% from the year before, which probably means European coal generation capacity was about 120 GW; "renewables have been squeezing out coal" and now account for twice as much electrical output (not capacity) as coal.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/18/world/asia/china-coal-pow... China cancels construction on 103 coal power plants totaling 120 GW (an entire Europe's worth) four years ago, including plants where construction had already begun.

https://ieefa.org/peabody-energy-flirts-with-bankruptcy-agai... Peabody, the world's biggest coal company, went bankrupt 3½ years ago and is at risk of going bankrupt again; "Coal bankruptcies in the United States have become increasingly common. Cheap gas and renewable power have steadily replaced coal in the U.S."

https://pv-magazine-usa.com/2020/05/28/record-low-solar-ppas... the 1GW San Juan Generating Station in New Mexico is unprofitable because its US$44.90/MWh operating cost is almost twice the average energy price at the Palo Verde Trading Hub (US$26.58/MWh) and three times the price on new solar PPAs (US$15/MWh); not mentioned in the article, but this is also why the 2.2 GW coal Navajo Generating Station, the largest in the US, was just demolished.

Now, there are some places where coal power generating capacity is increasing. PRC built 38.4 GW of new coal power capacity last year. But it also built 48.2 GW of new solar capacity and 71.7 GW of new wind capacity.

Outside PRC, worldwide coal generating capacity fell by a net of 17.2 GW in 02020, while PRC's net coal power capacity increased by only 29.8 GW (so 8.6 GW were decommissioned): https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-coal-idUSKBN2A308U

This despite the fact that 50% of PRC's coal power generation is unprofitable and there is an epidemic of bankruptcies: http://www.xinhuanet.com/power/2019-08/22/c_1210252090.htm Factors cited include "low electricity prices" and "new energy competition" ("新能源竞"), meaning wind and solar.

(For scale, worldwide bitcoin mining is estimated at 12.5 GW. China used 836 GW of electricity in 02019 and about three times that amount of energy.)

And, as explained in the articles I linked in my previous comment, solar is not cheaper everywhere yet. Polar countries like Germany, the UK, and the Netherlands have very poor capacity factors (around 10% for fixed PV). But the vast majority of the world lives in places with much more sun than that, so for them solar is cheaper. Bitcoin mining, as I explained, doesn't care where it happens.

> You've swapped now to "The UK will just not mine locally because they are never going to switch off coal" when the original argument was "BTC adoption will speed world transition away from coal".

I have not swapped, and I do not endorse your attempted restatement of my thesis. Allow me to clarify.

Today, PV in the UK is not cost-competitive with coal because even though PV modules cost 10% what they did ten years ago, they are still too expensive to be cost-effective in such a marginal region. Also, possibly the UK needs to build more energy storage—not necessary for bitcoin mining, but necessary for some other uses of grid power. What drives the price of PV modules is the learning curve: a 20% price reduction for every doubling of shipped volume. Another couple of doublings in volume, whether driven by bitcoin or (as seems overwhelmingly more likely) just general industry, and we'll get the price low enough to beat coal in the UK too. But not low enough that the UK can mine bitcoin profitably.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swanson's_law

This learning curve for PV modules is an empirical phenomenon with vast amounts of data to attest to it, and it's so fast because PV is such a new field that's still in a rapid exponential growth phase. The absence of such a rapid improvement in costs for fossil-fuel technology, and indeed the gradual increase of its cost due to resource exhaustion, is an even better known phenomenon, one which has been central to geopolitics for half a century.

So, I do think bitcoin mining will speed the world transition away from coal, by subsidizing the development of solar panels and solar-panel factories, which drives down the price of energy, although the total effect is small. Although even in China bitcoin mining is not currently a major percentage of total electricity consumption, much less total energy use, it is a percentage with characteristics that have already driven it to be peculiarly dominated by renewable energy, and those characteristics are intensifying. I do not expect bitcoin mining to become such a large industry that its effects on the renewable transition, though positive, will be large. But bitcoin mining definitely moves the world, even if in a small way, in the direction of a world where net CO₂ emissions are not merely small but actually negative.

It is understandable that, since you were unaware of the most basic facts of the situation, you were unable to apprehend the causal relationships in play, and misinterpreted perfectly straightforward points like the ones I was making. Hopefully this quick primer will save you from making such embarrassing errors in the future!

However, I am done explaining things to you.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#513

> The El Salvador President has previously said the move will open up financial services to the 70% of Salvadoreans who do not have bank accounts. Right. People who can't even afford a bank account would now all be using financial services by paying 10 dollars per transaction.

Why intentionally spread misinformation?

Fees are currently $1.17 and were as low as $0.30 recently.

https://mempool.space/

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#514
post #96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a smaller problem? It is fairly trivially traced on a transparent blockchain whereas cash is not.

Yes, it's a smaller problem to lose even all your ransom money, than to be physically captured and put in jail for decades. Can't we just agree on that? Also "fairly trivially traced" can be naive. Here's one scenario from a million possible scenarios. You hate politician John Doe and happen to know me. I have a stash of millions in ransom money on my public anonymous wallet. So I start sending money to organizations…

Do you know any books or articles that go into more depth on this, giving more examples, etc?

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#515

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LN now has routing, so you can open a single channel with a well-connected node and transact with everyone. They will charge you a fee for this, but it is on the order of 1/100th as much as a regular bitcoin transaction.

Still all sounds really complicated, obtuse and unnecessary. They should've went with a cryptocurrency which is actually usable out of the box as a... currency.

And that crypto would be?

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#516

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you run a node on lightning, you would know how much transactions you've forwarded, so you can make estimates, especially if you run a large node (say Bitfinex that runs their own nodes), but lightning isn't public the same way blockchain is. The 1MB block limit makes it highly likely that there will be transactions in the mempool, you still need to open/close channels (even batched ones) and presumably large tran…

It is also only 2140 if you believe that the market cap can double with the halvening schedule every four years. I see the upper bound (around gold market cap) in 3-5 halving cycles. After that the majority of the security has to be financed by tx fees

I'm referring to block rewards, the miners will get block rewards until 2140, price of Bitcoin doesn't matter.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#517
post #508

Amazingly shortsighted. The primary beneficiaries of this will be organised crime, who will now be able to wash the Bitcoin via El Salvador to convert it to dollars, which they can use to buy trade items and export the profits. The number one export of El Salvador is actually people. If they were concerned about remittance fees they could just set up a bank in the US with low fees, instead of getting kickbacks from O…

This weird meme that Bitcoin is so beneficial to criminal activity (especially in comparison with physical cash)... I don't know where it started, but I wish its completely bad-faith nature would die. Sure, the Silk Road started, but the feds have wised up on how to trace Bitcoin since then - it's fairly straight-forward given the public-nature of the blockchain.

You must be joking? There is a trivial way to hide the traces by using mixers. Why do you think ransomware and black markets today exclusively run crypto not fiat?

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#518
post #510

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That won't be the case forever, as the market cap gets larger and larger, the fluctuations get much smaller. I mean fiat currency and gold's value still fluctuate on a day to day basis, nothing is set in stone.

fiat currency does not drop 50% in one month and is not at the mercy of other countries. If US forbids all banks to execute trades in BTC like China did, BTC is dead.

> fiat currency does not drop 50% in one month and is not at the mercy of other countries.

Fiat currency not controlled by major economic powers has been know to do that (and there are a few cases for major powers, too, in conditions like just after losing major wars with other such powers.)

Conversely, if you aren’t a major economic power, a fiat currency that is controlled by one is at the mercy of other countries. (And, even if you are a major power, your currency has some exposure to your relationships with othe countrieds, though “at the mercy of” may be too strong.)

Not all fiat is “the USD from the perspective of the US”.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How so?

the rise and consolidation of settlement channel aggregators is going to lead to another visa / Mastercard style duopoly, "but with blockchain."

That doesn't make any sense, the channels are p2p, you can open and close channels with whoever you wish and your channel counterparties don't actually hold your funds, you hold them.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#520
post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

High level answer: Lightning transactions happen off network and only "sync up" once in a while. In a lightning transaction, only the two individuals transacting know that it has happened. But in an on-chain transaction, that info is public.

What prevents someone from making the transaction on the lightning network, as well as the btc blockchain before the lightning network syncs up?

The coins are essentially allocated to being on the lightning network, and cannot be used on the blockchain until the two are synced up.
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