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El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

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Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#431

Sigh. Bitcoin BTC, at 3 transactions per second, doesn't have the capacity to support El Salvador's economy. Even if Lightning worked (it doesn't), BTC doesn't have enough capacity to open channels for users at a reasonable cost. Salvadorians will end up forced to use proprietary payment networks denominated in BTC. BTC is not cash anymore, it won't work as such. There are other cryptos that could work, we'll have to…

It is not hard to scale Bitcoin for millions of people for everyday transactions. You give people a custodial wallet and track the balances off-chain using a trusted third party. As long as a government is willing to allow such a service to legally operate:

1. You can easily support billions of bitcoin transactions a second since the transactions only change centralized database entries.

2. Users can send and receive funds using a website. You could even issue tokens that user could use to authorize fund transfers at Point of Sale (see Credit Cards).

If you want to ensure that this trusted party isn't hacked, you can have five trusted parties instead of one and use multisig so that 4 of 5 of them must consent and sign to do an on-chain transaction. You can something similar for the internal ledger maintained by the trusted parties to ensure that one of them doesn't maliciously alter user balances.

The typical rejoiner to this is: Why do you need Bitcoin to do this? Why not do it with fiat? They aren't wrong per se, you could do this with fiat and it would work pretty well. However building a system like this with Bitcoin does have some advantages:

1. User's can withdraw funds on-chain,

2. there is a clearly defined on-chain layer for settling large balances between institutions,

3. bitcoin isn't created by fiat from a government bank. This removes the risk of inflation in longterm international contracts, etc...

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#432
post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

by comparing it to Linux do you mean where the backbone of finance is run by Bitcoin (like Linux running servers), or where <1% of users directly use Bitcoin themselves?

well, Linux is hugely successful open source project. Virtually everyone is "touched" by it directly or indirectly. It is one of core components of internet infrastructure. Bitcoin could be that. (of course I am aware that desktop/direct usage is really small)

Android users all use Linux. The fact they don’t know is one way it might feel like if most people “use” bitcoin and other decentralised tech.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless the national exchange is hosting wallets it controls on behalf of individual citizens, or acting as an intermediary for all transactions—in which case you’ve negated all the features of Bitcoin and may as well be using any random currency with the government as shared banker—I don’t see how it does. I mean, sure, “the government will be your bank for free” solves the problem of the unbanked, but renders the id…

Just like paying "Mastercard dollars" at the store means it might as well be pesos? Presumably for transactions that are worth paying blockchain fees, you'd use the blockchain.

> Just like paying "Mastercard dollars" at the store means it might as well be pesos?

I’m talking about specifically the benefit being sold as “Bitcoin is solving the problem of the unbanked”: if the solution involves the government being a free universal payment intermediary, the underlying currency choice isn’t what is solving the problem of tje unbanked, its the government providing free universal banking services, to which the underlying currency is mostly irrelevant, that is solving that problem.

The currency choice might be relevant to other things, though.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#434
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible to calculate the transaction volume in BTC over the lightning network, or is the ledger non-public in the same way that Bitcoin's is? If I understood the Satoshi paper right, after the block reward is exhausted the network's security depends on transaction fees being high enough to sustain a strong level of security. If Lightning brings transaction fees down, is that not a threat to the security of the…

LN doesn't reduce on-chain Bitcoin transaction fees, but instead attempts to move most of the transactions off-chain. With LN you would open a channel using an on-chain transaction, conduct any number of off-chain transactions in that channel, then "settle" the channel by closing with another on-chain transaction. There basically are two different views currently on the future scalability and funding model of the net…

Why do you need to compete with block subsidy rewards? Block subsidies are in addition to transaction fees

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#435
post #341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it possible to calculate the transaction volume in BTC over the lightning network, or is the ledger non-public in the same way that Bitcoin's is? If I understood the Satoshi paper right, after the block reward is exhausted the network's security depends on transaction fees being high enough to sustain a strong level of security. If Lightning brings transaction fees down, is that not a threat to the security of the…

If you run a node on lightning, you would know how much transactions you've forwarded, so you can make estimates, especially if you run a large node (say Bitfinex that runs their own nodes), but lightning isn't public the same way blockchain is. The 1MB block limit makes it highly likely that there will be transactions in the mempool, you still need to open/close channels (even batched ones) and presumably large tran…

It is also only 2140 if you believe that the market cap can double with the halvening schedule every four years. I see the upper bound (around gold market cap) in 3-5 halving cycles. After that the majority of the security has to be financed by tx fees

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That definition seems to differ from the definition I've commonly seen. How do you define a digital currency?

I don't have a strict definition handy, however it seems as though digital currencies would be those that are digitally based, whereas the dollar is a tangible currency first, even if it is fiat. A digital currency would be like crypto currency, or in-game currencies or something designed to be digital. The dollar is the federal reserve currency, and not intended to be digital. It doesn't make sense to call it digita…

At this point the vast majority of USD is digitally represented only.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#437
post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low on-chain fees are actually a disaster for Bitcoin. Once mining rewards dwindle to nothing due to halvings fees would have to rise astronomically to maintain hash power.

If bitcoin becomes the world currency, nation states can mine in order to protect the system. I think an equilibrium would be reached. For example, the US is probably OK with Russia having 10% of hash power if the US has 10%, and so on. However, that particular example may be unrealistic, because the US would probably choose poverty over accepting bitcoin.

> If bitcoin becomes the world currency, nation states can mine in order to protect the system.

That sounds truly decentralized. /s

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#439
post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The ratio of joules of energy to bitcoin mined isn't fixed; it's varied to keep the rate of bitcoin mining constant, although not from one day to the next. If the price of bitcoin goes up 20% in the next two weeks, then bitcoin mines that would have been running at a 10% loss start running at a 10% profit instead, which increases the hash rate and then the difficulty. This increases the amount of energy (and hardware…

But that's true for renewable energy too. Nothing about the two energy sources are different. Either energy prices are decoupled from mining rewards, in which case reduced prices of either fossil fuels or renewables (or increased price of BTC) means more profit for miners or energy prices are coupled to mining rewards, in which case changing prices of fossil fuels or renewables means nothing to miners. Please tell me…

Well, read through this 1001st version of the argument, and finally you'll understand why it's not bogus! It's really terrible that you've been arguing with such stupid people, because it's not really that complicated to explain why bitcoin mining is a renewable energy subsidy. It's really very simple, although it involves a lot of facts you aren't acquainted with.

> But that's true for renewable energy too. Nothing about the two energy sources are different.

There is one crucial difference: renewable energy is much cheaper. In the quaint units used for electricity trading, solar energy is being typically sold (in PPAs) for US$20–40/MWh in China and India, and every few months there's a new record low price; the latest is US$10.40/MWh in Saudi Arabia this April, but there have been solar PPAs signed for under US$20/MWh all over the world:

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/apr/25/insan...

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/10/solar-cheap-energy-co...

https://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/merchant-income...

https://balkangreenenergynews.com/saudi-arabia-to-add-3-7-gw...

By contrast, continuing to run existing coal plants costs around US$40/MWh, and US$50/MWh is a more typical wholesale price.

> Please tell me why mining does not incentivize cheaper fossil fuel energy technology in the same way it supposedly incentivizes cheaper renewable energy technology.

Oh, it totally would! If it existed.

We could imagine a disaster scenario in which someone figured out how to turn coal into electricity at US$1/MWh, and also found a hitherto unsuspected giant coal deposit that can be strip-mined, so the cost of mining is similarly low. Massive power plants would immediately be built, heedless of the vehement protests from other countries as well as the hapless villagers living atop the coal, and bitcoin miners would flock to the province just as they now flock to hydroelectric regions, and just as aluminum smelters have always clustered around hydroelectric dams and geothermal regions. The planet would warm up even more rapidly.

But that isn't the world we live in. With the exception of marginal cases like flaring of oilfield gas† and subsidized pricing, fossil fuel energy isn't cheaper. It's more expensive, and not just by a few percent—100%–400% more expensive. That's a contingent fact—it could certainly have happened differently, just as we could happen to live on a planet with abundant platinum in the crust, and fossil fuel used to be cheaper before we extracted all the easily accessible deposits like sea-coal—but it's still a fact. And it seems unlikely to change rapidly, since the bottleneck in exploiting fossil fuels is the cost of industrial-scale heat engines, which are 250 years old and consequently improving fairly slowly. The Parsons turbine, the mainstay of fossil-fuel electricity generation, hasn't changed fundamentally since 01884, although innumerable incremental improvements have raised its efficiency. By contrast, PV's getting cheaper at a double-digit percentage per year.

So, for bitcoin purposes, renewable energy is interchangeable with fossil-fuel energy, just cheaper. But from the standpoint of renewable energy, bitcoin mining has several unique factors to recommend it:

· It's perfectly portable. Portland cement kilns use a lot of energy too, but we don't see renewable-powered cement kilns in Saudi Arabia bankrupting fossil-fuel-powered cement companies in Mexico, Germany, and Akron, because cement is too heavy (per dollar of value) to be economically transported long distances, and so are the raw materials that make it up. Bitcoin, by contrast, can be sent anywhere in the world in under a second, so the new utility-scale solar plants in Chile and Huanghe are competing directly with the dirty old coal plants in Akron. Guess who wins?

· It's perfectly fungible and not subject to import tariffs. A car factory in Bangalore might survive competition from a more efficient solar-powered auto plant in Shanghai by virtue of making cars that are better adapted to local Karnatakan needs, but there's no such thing as a "bitcoin better adapted to local Karnatakan needs". The UK isn't switching to solar energy anytime soon (its average PV capacity factor is 10%, making local PV uncompetitive there) but people in the UK can easily trade using bitcoin mined in China or Portugal.

· It's very elastic: you can turn a bitcoin farm off in under a second if the price of power goes high, and turn it back on again in a few minutes when the price goes back down. (Try that with a steel mill, or even an aluminum smelting pot.) Moreover, you can load it onto the back of a truck and drive it to a different province if power is going to be expensive for a long time—an ability that has sometimes been abused by hydroelectric miners who drive their farms to regions with underutilized coal plants in the dry season, although that alternative seems to be, if you'll pardon the pun, drying up.

· It doesn't produce pollution of its own, the way cement kilns and paper mills do.

· It's very energy-intensive; the cost of energy is typically about half the total cost of bitcoin mining. An average product of the economy is about 11% energy, so a 20% increase in the cost of energy raises the price of the product by 2.2%. But a 20% increase in the cost of energy raises the price of bitcoin mining by about 10%, which is easily more than your entire profit margin. This means that bitcoin experiences much stronger pressures to seek out cheaper energy than most other industries.

Now, obviously the whole zero-sum competition aspect of bitcoin mining is bad and wasteful, benefiting nobody, and I hope we find a workable alternative soon; but it's fortunate that, at least at the moment, that wasteful competition is subsidizing renewable energy.

Does that help?

______

† Mining bitcoin from oilfield gas that would have been flared anyway doesn't promote global warming, it just makes the gas less likely to accidentally get vented without burning, which has even worse global-warming effects.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have a wallet and a seed phrase for said wallet in a safety deposit box or even two. Boom, all set.

You mean a safety deposit box at a bank? At a bank most Ecuadorians don't use?

In that case, bury a seed phrase somewhere like hidden treasure. The whole point is that a seed phrase is all that's needed to backup a wallet.

It's akin to hiding money in your mattress, but less bulky. You could even memorize it because seed phrases are between 12 and 24 words.

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