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El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

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Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL! Very true.. Who the hell has time to figure out all this stuff? I personally think the day the digital US dollar is developed and can be stored in your IPhone. If I can take my locally stored digital dollar and then send it via imessage or whatsapp, then the game is truly over for Bitcoin.

The digital dollar has been here for years. I couldn't even tell you the last time I carried paper currency.

If I hand a cashier a physical dollar, no fee to me.

Not so with your so-called digital dollars.

An actual digital dollar would have no transaction fee whatsoever.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#202
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are using Zap/Strike (Lightning) and zero fees. The phony "fees are $1,000 a tx line" and $10 hyperbole simply show you have no clue what you're talking about when speaking about Bitcoin. Even on chain the past solid week you could send free BTC transactions, or for a couple of cents.

I am sorry but what is the point of adopting BTC if vast majority of the transactions are going to be handled by a third party service. Makes no sense to me.

One advantage is that you're creating a separation of concerns, so that it would be easy to change third parties if necessary.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What the normal people will use in the beginning is going to be non-custodial LN based solution like strike. Minimal fees, easy to use. If you get a bit more, move to custodial LN wallet/onchain transactions. More fees, more security and less trust. And once you have too much BTC start storing them in an offline cold storage.

The idea that "normal people" will be able to use bitcoin at all without getting their private keys stolen is laughable. Think of how often online bank accounts get hacked in the US, except the difference now is that your money is gone, permanently.

How do you think bank accounts get hacked? It's much easier to yank a password/credit card number people use daily.

The benefit of private key is you only need to use it once. Then store it away in a safe or _bank_.

More UX will develop over time as adoption grows. We already have hardware wallets that even babies could use.

Finally you somehow imply that FIAT theft doesn't happen. Even in recent modern history people have lost all their savings in a snap be it their house burning down, colleague stealing everything or even your bank going under.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL! Very true.. Who the hell has time to figure out all this stuff? I personally think the day the digital US dollar is developed and can be stored in your IPhone. If I can take my locally stored digital dollar and then send it via imessage or whatsapp, then the game is truly over for Bitcoin.

>Who the hell has time to figure out all this stuff? In the early days of the internet, many things were a complete pain in the ass to do. But then services and apps were built and things became easier, same is happening in this space. Before, even purchasing Bitcoin was extremely difficult to do, and involved a lot of research + steps - now it's trivial. Before, securing your wallet was extremely difficult, now it's…

[deleted]

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LOL! Very true.. Who the hell has time to figure out all this stuff? I personally think the day the digital US dollar is developed and can be stored in your IPhone. If I can take my locally stored digital dollar and then send it via imessage or whatsapp, then the game is truly over for Bitcoin.

The digital dollar has been here for years. I couldn't even tell you the last time I carried paper currency.

The dollar is a central bank currency.

Numbers in a retail bank's ledger are not digital dollars. They represent an obligation of the bank, and not direct ownership of dollars.

Digital dollars exist, but only banks can hold them, as they're the only ones with accounts at the central bank. The rest of us use retail bank accounts, which are the equivalent of custodial wallets in the crypto world.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#207
post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, turns out SEPA only stipulates that cross-border transfers cannot be more expensive than national transfers, it doesn't say they should be free :(

Yeah I knew it's not a legal requirement but still I thought it would lead to zero fees everywhere, because now when you need to do a lot of transfers, it makes sense to create an account in a foreign SEPA bank and then even the transfers to greek accounts would be free. Granted I don't know how much are bank transfers used in Greece (given the fee probably not to their full potential).

> then even the transfers to greek accounts would be free

No, the bank still charges the 3 EUR for the incoming transfer, sadly.

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#208
There's disappointingly much heat and little light in this thread; lots of people in rich countries ripping on El Salvador (and bitcoin) with little more than stereotypes to go on.

Let me try to displace some of the content-free flaming with real information.

I'm not in El Salvador, but I do have some experience with how Bitcoin gets used in practice in low- and middle-income countries, despite the transaction fees sometimes being high. I don't have experience with Strike or Lightning in general, so while in theory they should help a lot with the transaction-fee issue, I don't know how they work out in practice.

I’ve been using Bitcoin to get paid for a couple of years at this point where I live here in Argentina. It’s currently 13 years after Bitcoin’s invention, and some people think it’s regressing instead of progressing. Well, 13 years after the internet’s invention was 01982; not only couldn’t you get so much as a weather report online, much less IRC, but many of the early interesting experiments like NLS at SRI had shut down, and more and more places were disabling guest access to their hosts—you couldn’t run so much as a game of ADVENT without getting a username. And a password. Things were seriously regressing. The only people you could talk to on the internet were other people who really bought into the subculture.

If you live in a country with a highly functional banking system and no kleptocracy, Bitcoin is probably a bit puzzling unless you have family in Cuba. But it’s not puzzling at all for those of us who live somewhere in the middle of the broad spectrum between Switzerland and Somalia, because most places have a little kleptocracy. Argentina is a stable democracy, far from being “a failed state,”† but if you want to send US$500 abroad via non-Bitcoin means it’s basically impossible, and the only broadly available savings vehicle is real estate (“ahorrar en ladrillos”), which of course grossly inflates real-estate prices, with a substantial part of the capital city occupied by empty apartments someone bought “as an investment”. Historically, Argentines have saved by buying dollars, but that’s limited to US$200 a month now, and then only if you have a non-under-the-table job (about a third of total employment is under the table):

https://www.ambito.com/finanzas/dolares/cronologia-del-cepo-...

You can see that in September 02019 when this measure was imposed the price of a dollar was AR$63.50; now it’s AR$155. So whatever savings you had in pesos in 02019 have lost 59% of their value to peso devaluation.

In 02001 a lot of Argentines had saved dollars in their dollar-denominated bank accounts. This did not preserve their savings through the financial crisis that year; the cash-strapped government limited withdrawals to a trickle, then converted dollar deposits to pesos at a one-to-one rate, then released the exchange-rate peg, at which point peso went overnight from being worth US$1 to being worth US$0.25 before settling at about US$0.31 for the next few years. The US did something similar in 01933.

Some might suggest using “alternatives to banks like credit unions where customers—as owners—hold more power,” but Credicoop depositors suffered the same two-thirds confiscation of savings as depositors in for-profit banks. And they pay the same 3% tax on bank transactions including checks. That’s more than a fast Bitcoin transaction fee of US$15 for transactions over US$500.

But we’re not a failed state. There are no gangs of bandits roving the streets in Argentine cities (though there are some pretty bad slums where you’ll get robbed if you wander in without knowing anybody). Courts, free public hospitals, and roads continue to function, though there are more potholes than a year ago. Argentine infant mortality is 10 per 1000 live births, down from almost 20 in the late 01990s and the same as the late 01980s in the US; life expectancy at birth is 77 years, worse than Switzerland’s 84, but the same as China and Hungary, and better than Saudi or Mexico. (Somalia is 54.)

Most of the world, and notably El Salvador, is worse off than Argentina, although not necessarily in such a statistically transparent fashion. About one fourth of the people in the world are unbanked, 51% here in Argentina, 70% in El Salvador; even advanced countries like Russia, Hungary, and Uruguay have roughly a quarter of the population unbanked:

https://www.gfmag.com/global-data/economic-data/worlds-most-...

And if your family lives in a country like Iran or Venezuela subject to US sanctions, and you live in the US? Good luck sending them an ACH, instant or otherwise!‡ It’s well known that Bitcoin is very popular in Venezuela, which kind of is a failed state, so one of the Venezuelan governments is trying to tax Bitcoin remittances at 15%.

https://archive.fo/ZRXzS

Bitcoin handles a few billion dollars per year in such remittances, which are the lifeblood of the Salvadoran economy. A few billion dollars a year might seem like a trivial amount of money to someone in a rich country, but in poor countries, it’s enough to keep several million people alive.

Even in the US, it’s common for the police to confiscate large amounts of paper currency just because they can (“civil forfeiture”); US bank accounts are probably fine for US$100K but probably somewhat risky for US$10M if the bank thinks you don’t seem like the kind of person who ought to have it. US$10M in US$100 bills fits in a box you can wheel around on a dolly, but Bitcoin is a lot more practical. (And of course US$10M in dollar bills loses about US$200k per year to inflation.) The problems with official corruption in El Salvador are reputed to be dramatically worse than in the US, and Bitcoin should help a lot with that.

Transaction fees are usually high enough that you wouldn’t want to use Bitcoin to pay for a can of Red Bull or even a restaurant dinner. But it’s extremely practical as an alternative to Western Union or US$100 bills or gold, even with the current very high transaction fees. At the moment, the Bitcoin transaction fee is very low—the median Bitcoin transaction fee in the last block was 0.0495 millibitcoins, which is US$1.72:

https://btc.com/0000000000000000000c28aea6e8c073e44e249460e8...

When I last checked a week ago, it was 0.00678 millibitcoins, which is US$0.25:

https://btc.com/0000000000000000000778ef382c1697706e34634696...

Three months ago it was at what I think of as a more normal rate of 0.31 millibitcoins, US$11, which is lower than the 3.4% spread you’d pay to a jeweler or black-market money changer for transactions over US$350:

https://btc.com/00000000000000000000476ab57eea9be8ada36e2680...

So, Bitcoin doesn’t have to be a cypherpunk utopia to be a big improvement on the status quo ante. For those of you living in stable countries where your worries are things like “instant and extremely low-fee ACHs” and “decentralized utopia”, this may be very confusing, but try to remember that most of the world lives in places with much more pressing concerns, concerns that Bitcoin helps a lot with. And you may live there too, soon—the loyal subjects of Kaiser Wilhelm in 01913 certainly didn’t expect that in 15 years they’d be in the middle of a hyperinflation episode that remains legendary a century later.

I think that, by providing workarounds to the people who need them, cryptocurrencies probably not only ameliorate the most immediate and pressing concerns of poor parts of the population like Venezuelan immigrants and MS-13 victims, but probably also adjust the power balance in a more liberal and democratic direction. This will improve the chance of those concerns being ameliorated by public policy over the next decades as well. But it’s hard to tell what will really happen. The potential disaster scenario is that, by making most taxation impossible, cryptocurrencies destroy the modern welfare state without providing anything to replace it. So the public hospitals close, the enormous police force starts to support itself by extracting tribute, and the infrastructure decays. Pretty similar to what’s happened in the US over the last 50 years, in fact, only more so.

However, at this point I think the modern welfare state is already doing a good enough job of destroying itself without any significant help from cryptocurrencies—as evidence, I can point to Maduro, Macri, Bolsonaro, Trump, and Brexit, and metonymically to the social changes they betoken. So at this point I’m more worried about cushioning the collapse than preventing it.

(I posted an earlier version of this comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337189.)

____

† We’ve remained democratic since 01983, electing presidents from three different political parties (UCR, PJ, and PRO), and there’s no serious insurgency. It’s the economy and government policy that are ruinously unstable, to a point that seems satirical to anyone accustomed to the US, but is lamentably common worldwide. Rich people sometimes say they don’t know of legitimate uses of Bitcoin outside of “failed states”.

‡ Family remittances are specifically exempted from the US sanctions on Iran, but good luck finding a US bank that’s willing and able to take that risk: https://www.wiggin.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/26580_advi...

Re: El Salvador makes Bitcoin legal tender

#210
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where I live ordinary bank transactions are free for ordinary consumers. I never pay a transaction fee or any annual fees. My bank used to charge an annual fee for a credit card but they have stopped charging now. In fact in my whole life (I'm 65 so about 50 years of having bank accounts) I have never paid transaction fees for ordinary transactions (in the UK and Norway).

Where I live (Canada), transactions are usually "free" up to a certain amount per month, but they often hit you with monthly fees. That is unless you can maintain a minimum balance in your bank account, in which case the fees become the interest they earn off that chunk of cash, I suppose.

Canadian banks have a cosy non compete arrangement, and they are allowed to charge enormous Interac and CC transaction fees. Tangerine (Scotiabank's online only brand) and Simplii (CIBC) offer no fee accounts and unlimited free Interac. Canadians are very traditional and change resistant too, they like to go into the physical bank.

I think cheques still exist because there is no system in Interac for associating a destination account reference with an Interac transfer. In Australia cheques have been replaced by BPay (owned by the banks) and PostBillPay (owned by the Post Office) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BPAY. In fact, I've never had to use a cheque as an adult except for e.g. buying a car/house. Interbank transfers and instant payments (Osko) have been free for ages, at least 20 years. https://www.rba.gov.au/publications/bulletin/2020/mar/two-ye...

It shows how arthritic banking is in the West that payment systems like AliPay haven't been allowed.

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