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The myth of the driverless tube train

londonreconnections.com

51–60 of 152 posts

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#51
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany for example has about 35.000 train conductors. Subways are just an obvious first step. Add renewable energy to the equation and you can build a fantastic system running 24/7 without any waiting for trains.

>Add renewable energy to the equation and you can build a fantastic system running 24/7 without any waiting for trains. You'll need some storage or natural gas power plant as most renewable energy are intermittent. Also, unless you have alternative routes, you cannot have a subway running 24/7 because maintenance needs to be done somehow.

You're missing the obvious solution of nuclear trains. I think it's self-evident that these would have no drawbacks. In the unlikely event of a disaster all you'd need to do is seal the tunnel and dig a new one.

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#53

They speak of "myth", but there are many cities with driverless subway trains (e.g., in neighboring Paris, but definitely in more than the four "exceptions" that they mention). Instead of such grandiose philosophical statements, which are ultimately empty, they could make an argument based on facts and observations from the reality.

It's a long article, and I didn't read everything, but I guess this is one of the main points:

> Yet unless you are removing humans from the entire operation of the network, all you are actually doing is shuffling pieces, not removing them from the board. Station staff can strike, and do. DLR ‘Train Captains’ can strike, and do. Control centre staff can strike, and do. Signallers can strike, and do.

> As plenty of mainline railway franchisees have discovered, changing the relative responsibility of the roles doesn’t shift the balance of power between employer and employee. It simply alters which Union you need to negotiate with most

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#54
post #24

It's a reasonable sounding argument but I don't find it totally convincing. Firstly, a big deal is made about the need for PEDs. The justification given is vague - essentially that the regulator would require them, because it's now "known" that PEDs are required, and the DLR doesn't have them because, well, really it should but we don't care enough to actually upgrade it. But new stuff must. This looks like a case of…

On your first point about PEDs, I think you've missed that there's an element of safety they offer that prevents non-accidents (often referred to as a "person under the train" or other euphemisms). These definitely happen on the DLR [0] , along with many other lines. Among other obvious repurcussions of these incidents, these often result in a line closure of at least a full commuting slot.

[0] - multiple incidents on this FOI request from 2012, and I'm sure there will be more recent data available https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/persons_under_trains

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#55
post #20

If something goes wrong in the middle of a 120 year old tunnel, 30 metres beneath the city, I want there to be a trained, responsible member of staff in place to manage the situation. It's that simple.

Then you shouldn't use the tube, should you ? The argument that they are trained, responsible and competent is only used to justify their benefits. If you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#57
So, this article is about that GoA 4 is not reachable and thus you should not call it "driverless tube"?

Is that right or I am missing something?

When he writes that they looked at the system that Siemens provides, then I think I know the system, which is considered. The very same trains system is actually running here in my town for more than 10 years now. I think it should be deployed originally by 2006. But as any project in Germany, this was late to and as such was deployed in 2008.

Yes, it is not GoA4 but GoA3. Yes, it was a technically challenging. I personally know people who where involved in the project and specifically in the functional safety aspects. The first sensors were installed somewhere around the end of the last century on the lines that are run by the drivers to get experiences and to improve the safety system. At that time the system was somehow unique, because it was specifically design for retrofitting existing tubes. It is also designed from the beginning that driverless trains and trains with drivers can run in parallel on the very same rail, if needed, because some lines may share some parts of the rail system.

Yes, it is (only) GoA3, that means there is a central control room. There are actual people sitting monitoring and "supporting" the automated decisions. They are supporting in a sense, that if some situation occurs the system does not have an automated decision to, the operator can view a sequence and decide what to do. If the operator decides, that he is unable to decide remotely, he can sent an onsite operator. That means there are no (operating) people on the trains itself, they are only required at the platform.

This gives the benefit, that the number of trains currently running can be decreased or increased depending on demand without having the need for having drivers on standby. That makes personnel planing much more easier and can save costs. This is paid for with increased costs to run the technical system.

This is actually not cheap as well. Here in Nuremberg there are currently 3 lines. Line 1 is the oldest and still run by a driver. Line 2, the second oldest, was originally run by a driver but converted to be driverless. Line 3, the newest, started completely driverless. Line 2 and 3 largely share the same rails. Line 1 runs on their own rails. Only when maintenance is happening, then all lines share in some parts the very same rails. Because of Line 2, the system is mostly retrofit. The city decided a few years ago not to go driverless for line 1, because of the costs involved for retrofitting the complete line.

Besides the costs, there is also a benefit for the drivers to be driverless. I have some friends who used to be drivers. They say, this job is very very challenging when you are the whole time underground and basically most of the stations looking almost the same. After the second round you loose your mind and concentration, so that sometimes they announced the wrong way they where going. For the safety aspects that is even worse.

So going driverless or not is not a myth as such, only if you consider GoA4 as the only possible driverless. But the decision for or against is very complex and even can increase safety for the passengers, because the automation does no get tired.

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#58
post #3

Why would it matter? You need so few subway drivers/conductors that does it really matter if you need one per train? Taxis are probably average a driver per 1.5 ish customers. Subway/train is hundreds. This reminds me of optimisation of non critical code. Sure its nice, but the cost/benefit is just not there.

It's political.

In the uk, train drivers unions are one of the last meaningful unions left and the right wing government hates that.

Also, London has a left wing mayor and a very good public transport system. The right wing government hate both the mayor (he's heir apparent to lead the party nationally) and the concept of public transport.

That's also the real reason private train operators were bailed out but public TfL was been hung out to dry...

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#59

So to keep TfL afloat the government has to give them money and as part of that they have to spend a large amount of money investigating something most people don’t think is viable. Seems like a good use of public funds.

Best of all, the money is a loan that London taxpayers will be expected to repay. Meanwhile private TOCs get free cash...

Re: The myth of the driverless tube train

#60
post #45
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This isn't really the argument though. Sure, we want a member of staff to help but they could be a £30K train manager instead of a £70K driver.

As the article explains, the train managers will strike just the same as drivers do, leaving us in exactly the same situation as before.

Not exactly the same situation. Less wages to pay, less pension debts to fund.
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