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Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

astro.build

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Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#101

Post by estaseuropano »

fks wrote: post #2

:wave: Hey everyone, one of the Astro creators here! Happy to talk Astro or answer any questions you have about what we're building. Our README has a bunch more info that we couldn't fit into the release post: https://github.com/snowpackjs/astro

Hi, thanks a lot for this work! A possibly naive question from someone that dabbles in tech/web only for pleasure while working in a completely different realm:

I understand the how of using a site builder like yours, but not the why. I see you allow e.g. use of react or svelte - don't they already allow you to build static sites? And i know e.g. Hugo, Hexo & co that allow static site generation, but presumably don't need use of another framework.

What is it that Astro does beyond or better than those tools? Why and who would benefit from spending time learning and using it? E.g. if I start to learn svelte what benefit will it bring me to learn also Astro and make my hobby project dependent on it? Could you give a few use cases where it would or would not add value to use Astro, to help less informed people like me?

Thanks again!

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#102

Post by seanp2k2 »

I get it, I’m glad it exists, it’s Neat, and congrats, but it’s also amusing to me that we’ve reached the point of JS tooling where we’re making frameworks to deal with frameworks, build tool frameworks a few levels deep, etc. It just seems like so much…stuff. And now we have stuff to help us use less stuff, but it’s still stuff in itself.

Nothing is stopping anyone from opening notepad and writing HTML with inline style, then using FileZilla to FTP/SCP that to a server (probably a VPS these days) somewhere, or publish it on GitHub/GitLab Pages.

I remember a time when people here would cite http://youmightnotneedjquery.com/ a lot. Modern browser APIs can do more than ever. I wonder if there’s a more recently-updated equivalent about how one might not need node tooling at all to build a static site.

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#103

Post by seanp2k2 »

nickreese wrote: post #42
mwcampbell wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Congrats on the release. For some reason when I heard of Astro, I thought it was a dynamic server-side rendering framework, not a static site builder. But I'm sure someone else will take on SSR with islands if they haven't already. Also: > Astro is and always will be free. It is an open source project released under the MIT license. > We care deeply about building a more sustainable future for open source software. A…

Elder.js supports Islands with SSR. It is also MIT. I released it as an SEO experiment as much as anything else. I’m enjoying the dev process and am committed to facilitating (myself or paying another) it’s maintenance for several years. I can do that because my prior successes can subsidize the cost. If I had to do it again, I’d probably pick another license. As a first time maintainer of a project that is hitting t…

Plot twist: if it’s worth enough to them, make a living for yourself selling consulting services :)

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#104

Post by seanp2k2 »

freeopinion wrote: post #67
nickreese wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elder.js supports Islands with SSR. It is also MIT. I released it as an SEO experiment as much as anything else. I’m enjoying the dev process and am committed to facilitating (myself or paying another) it’s maintenance for several years. I can do that because my prior successes can subsidize the cost. If I had to do it again, I’d probably pick another license. As a first time maintainer of a project that is hitting t…

> I very much think the state of OSS isn’t sustainable. I'm perplexed by this. You wrote that Elder.js was an experiment. I sense that the stress you are feeling now is a result of trying to make it work for everybody else. But it doesn't have to work for anybody else. OSS that is a slave to people who don't contribute may very well be unsustainable. OSS for the fun and use of it is perfectly sustainable. If Elder.js…

Just an aside, this is why I enjoy playing with open-source music things and Arduino / ESP32 ecosystem stuff more than web tech in my free time. There are some commercial uses, but still a ton of hobbyists doing it for the love of the process and just for fun / because we can. A whole lot of cool stuff exists in these spaces. Definitely worth a look.

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#106

Post by awestroke »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #102

I get it, I’m glad it exists, it’s Neat, and congrats, but it’s also amusing to me that we’ve reached the point of JS tooling where we’re making frameworks to deal with frameworks, build tool frameworks a few levels deep, etc. It just seems like so much…stuff. And now we have stuff to help us use less stuff, but it’s still stuff in itself. Nothing is stopping anyone from opening notepad and writing HTML with inline s…

Imperative UI sucks. There is a very good reason everyone is using declarative UI frameworks these days

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#107

Post by varrock »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #102

I get it, I’m glad it exists, it’s Neat, and congrats, but it’s also amusing to me that we’ve reached the point of JS tooling where we’re making frameworks to deal with frameworks, build tool frameworks a few levels deep, etc. It just seems like so much…stuff. And now we have stuff to help us use less stuff, but it’s still stuff in itself. Nothing is stopping anyone from opening notepad and writing HTML with inline s…

I felt this way when approaching my personal site. I was falling into the Gatsby trap and then realized all I needed were HTML, CSS, and a few JavaScript files. I think you see over-engineered solutions as a result of career driven development and the hype around these libraries/frameworks on forums/social media.

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#108

Post by seanp2k2 »

qbasic_forever wrote: post #18
MatthewPhillips wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not yet, Lit has support for SSR in prerelease and we've experimented with supporting it. Once it's ready it will be included. In the meantime you can of course use web components (with any framework) like you normally would, just without SSR. Tracking issue for Lit support: https://github.com/snowpackjs/astro/issues/109

Very cool! Yeah I wish SSR was more of a thing in the web component world. Someday soon hopefully!

Amusing to me to see the return to concepts that the dynamic web started with in the form of CGI, mod_perl, Cold Fusion, PHP, ASP.NET and all that. It’s the same, but different. Next we’ll be on to multi-tiered caching.

What’s the difference conceptually between islands and e.g. Hole-punching in Varnish? The result in each case seems to be a site that is mostly static with some dynamic portions.

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#109

Post by mro_name »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #102

I get it, I’m glad it exists, it’s Neat, and congrats, but it’s also amusing to me that we’ve reached the point of JS tooling where we’re making frameworks to deal with frameworks, build tool frameworks a few levels deep, etc. It just seems like so much…stuff. And now we have stuff to help us use less stuff, but it’s still stuff in itself. Nothing is stopping anyone from opening notepad and writing HTML with inline s…

> Nothing is stopping anyone from opening notepad and writing HTML with inline style, then using FileZilla to FTP/SCP that to a server

I think that's exactly what 'computer literacy' should enable laypersons to do.

And we as a profession should be teaching that and developing assistive tools (like htmltidy) rather than intrusive ones (like hugo or worse wordpress. Both or nice and helpful but intrusive nevertheless). Kids should learn this in grade 6 or so. Be it in school or elsewhere. Before they post pictures on inhumane and ignorant advertising platforms they should know that they can do otherwise.

Re: Astro: Ship Less JavaScript

#110

Post by mro_name »

varrock wrote: post #107
seanp2k2 wrote: post #102

I get it, I’m glad it exists, it’s Neat, and congrats, but it’s also amusing to me that we’ve reached the point of JS tooling where we’re making frameworks to deal with frameworks, build tool frameworks a few levels deep, etc. It just seems like so much…stuff. And now we have stuff to help us use less stuff, but it’s still stuff in itself. Nothing is stopping anyone from opening notepad and writing HTML with inline s…

I felt this way when approaching my personal site. I was falling into the Gatsby trap and then realized all I needed were HTML, CSS, and a few JavaScript files. I think you see over-engineered solutions as a result of career driven development and the hype around these libraries/frameworks on forums/social media.

have a link?

I even do similar for a microblog: https://demo.mro.name/shaarligo - try without JS and look at the source (not the DOM).

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