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Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

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Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#301
post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My university sheltered me and gave me a physical address, during which time that address formed an essential part of identifying myself to my bank(s) and the US Government. You'll note that I haven't said anywhere that Google (or anyone else!) is obligated to provide indefinite email service to anybody who happens to sign up. What I've observed is that, unlike my physical address, there are virtually no formal recou…

What do physical addresses have to do with this? The discussion was about email. I understood your argument to be "email addresses are important" + "Google provides email addreses" -> "Google should be regulated as a public utility". But like I showed, the same applies to basically every kind of organization providing email addresses. So either you are asking for basically every single organization to be a public uti…

> I understood your argument to be "email addresses are important" + "Google provides email addreses" -> "Google should be regulated as a public utility". But like I showed, the same applies to basically every kind of organization providing email addresses.

It's getting a little muddled, but the observation was this: email addresses increasingly serve the same role as physical addresses. We have an entire social and legal framework around the guarantees of physical mail because of how important it is to our ability to transact our daily lives; no corresponding framework exists for email.

> So either you are asking for basically every single organization to be a public utility, or there is some discriminating function you're not stating.

The discriminating function, as I said in the very first response, is the necessary role of a service in identifying ourselves to essential services (read: utilities, financials, government). My belief is that email satisfies this condition. But also, as I said in the first: I don't really know if I commit to the public utility argument; I merely wanted to point out that email serves a role tantamount to the canonical public service (public mail). If that's the case, we ought at the very least to have similar entitlements with our email providers.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#302
post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What sort of horrible privacy issues do you suppose your smart meter has? You already tell your utility how much power you use.

Data aggregated per month is very different from data aggregated per hour or per minute. You can infer far more personal information from the latter.

I think it's only a matter of degree. And at every level someone can complain. So where do you draw the line?

Watching a meter spin or reading it once a month you can tell if someone is on vacation. Isn't that equally private and personal information?

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#303
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> gives them the kind of power that we'd normally only see in regional monopolies like water utilities. No access to water from the only provider in your reach, especially if you're kind of broke, really doesn't seem equal to having your email account blocked, when people have very accessible choices of email providers and what they tie to it. The situation sucks, but looking at this from a public utility perspective…

> when people have very accessible choices of email providers and what they tie to it. I think this point might have been true 15 or 20 years ago, but I suspect that it no longer is on either front: * E-mail is increasingly non-federated and subject to Google's dictates w/r/t delivery guarantees, origin identification, &c. These aren't bad things; e-mail was a mess before Google started taking it seriously! But it do…

Regarding your first point, is that from experience? Have you known of a case where a large institution sends a legitimate email to a small provider, the small provider rejects it, and the large institution does nothing about it?

If you're paying for your email provider, I would think opening up a ticket and asking to let their email through would not be much of an issue, if this ever happens.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#304

What a waste of resources to sue like that. They aren't going to win it.

They don't have to win it. They have to make Google think carefully about what boundaries exist for them, politically, and make sure that they don't cross them to the point that Ohio (or whoever) can win. And if that restrains Google's behavior, Ohio may have in fact won, even if they don't win the lawsuit.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#305
post #95

But I have multiple choices for email, search, video hosting and browsers. I don’t have any choice for water, electricity, sewer, on any other public utility. I am sure there are a bunch of people on here that don’t use any Google products and are using DuckDuckGo, Firefox, ProtonMail, Vimeo. There are many choices.

You have multiple choices for water, dig a well, buy it from the local grocery store. Same for sewage because self composting toilets exist. Also electricity isn't a utility just use a stationary bike as a generator or buy solar panels... Just because you have multiple choices doesn't mean something is/isn't a utility. Its pretty arbitrary. They also aren't talking about Google products (most of which are completely…

I am not aware of any city or town that has utilities and allows property owners to opt out and dig a well or put in a septic,

Maybe you could use composting toilet however you would still be required by law to hook up and maintain a connect to the public water and sewer system or the city would condemn your home

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#306

A big problem with software and people who write software (often) is that software doesn't like all the ways that human beings misbehave, change their minds, don't have immutable states, and don't fit into the categories you build for them. So any system that has a duty to serve everyone eventually ends up with an operational component that has almost as much human interaction and problem solving required as the soft…

There are plenty of rational reasons for not wanting a smart meter. Don't let the irrational people detract from the fact that there are many real problems with smart meters. Especially lots of privacy issues. In the UK, I report my own meter readings and the electrical company probably only really ever goes out once every few years when tenancies change. So I actually don't see what money it saves them asides from t…

In Australia, in the state of Victoria all meters are smart meter for few years now. They are also growing in number in other states. There has been no hacking incident. in fact it makes peoples life easier by allowing them to track energy usage at every 15 mins interval with historical data using an app from the utility company. This data cannot be sold either. In fact under the Govt. Open API scheme very shortly you will be able to give access to your own data for comparison to select the best plan for you (just like open banking).

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#307

A big problem with software and people who write software (often) is that software doesn't like all the ways that human beings misbehave, change their minds, don't have immutable states, and don't fit into the categories you build for them. So any system that has a duty to serve everyone eventually ends up with an operational component that has almost as much human interaction and problem solving required as the soft…

> People turn out to irrationally not want smart meters. Some people may be irrational, but smart meters are a huge privacy concern - the electricity company can figure out your patterns from the power usage and the "shape" of it. This is the reason why I don't want a smart meter. Disclaimer: I actually was involved in building firmware and management software of smart meters.

How do you defend against the argument that it's just a matter of degree?

I can tell from your old spinning mechanical meter that you're at home and not on vacation. That's personal information. Why is a smart meter so different?

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#308

Why can't we all collectively show an attitude of humble gratitude to an organization that has done so much to advance our civilization and improve our quality of life?

Who’s ungrateful? Ohio rocks!

Should I parse that to read you disagree with my characterization of Google? Care to elaborate?

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#309

A big problem with software and people who write software (often) is that software doesn't like all the ways that human beings misbehave, change their minds, don't have immutable states, and don't fit into the categories you build for them. So any system that has a duty to serve everyone eventually ends up with an operational component that has almost as much human interaction and problem solving required as the soft…

> There's a reason that Google (well, maybe other tech companies) bring you new things, and the electric company doesn't. It's not all roses.

There is a solution: Google writes the software. The utility company runs it.

The problem right now is that Google takes too many roles.

Re: Ohio sues Google, seeks to declare the internet company a public utility

#310

Why can't we all collectively show an attitude of humble gratitude to an organization that has done so much to advance our civilization and improve our quality of life?

Because that organization has abused its power and gone from serving the public to ruling it.

Can you point out exactly when they crossed this line? Seems to me like they're pretty much doing what they've always done, and being punished for being the best at it.
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