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Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

bbc.com

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Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#51

Post by handrous »

shoto_io wrote: post #7

"Don't hate the player hate the game," is what comes to my mind. I would guess it's all legal. It is still good to have transparency, which might potentially change things. I am not so sure though. After all, politicans are usually rich as well. But: All of these super-rich have probably created many, many jobs. I guess all-in-all it is a positive game for society.

> But: All of these super-rich have probably created many, many jobs. I guess all-in-all it is a positive game for society.

Pinning the credit for job-creation on the rich is absurd. They'd have no motivation to hire anyone without demand, which is something that others provide.

Seem absurd? Yeah, of course it is, but keep the capital but take away the demand and see how long those jobs stick around. Lots of capital and little demand, few jobs created. Lots of demand and little capital... well, give it some time, and not even very much, and you'll have tons of capital and lots of jobs, both. So, which perspective, exactly, is absurd? (nb the judges will accept "both, equally" and "both, but crediting the super-rich with job creation is the more absurd of the two" as correct answers)

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#52

Post by dougmwne »

GavinMcG wrote: post #29
imgabe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do tax capital gains. You pay taxes when you sell. Do you mean tax unrealized capital gains? There is a reason you don’t owe taxes on a stock you haven’t sold yet. For one thing, what if you have to pay tax at one valuation, and then it goes down later.

What if? Most jurisdictions assess property taxes annually, and many of them regularly reassess the property value on which the tax is calculated, rather than waiting until a sale to reassess. One question is whether we want to encourage pure ownership/holding of assets (the current stock ownership situation) or whether we want to encourage productive use of an asset (the current land ownership situation).

And additionally, a significant fraction of most people's net worth is in their housing. With a typical tax rate of 1%, most non-wealthy people are effectively already paying a large wealth tax on a huge fraction of their net worth. But if you are ultra rich and have most of your wealth in capital instead, you get away with practically no wealth tax at all. The system is rigged beyond belief.

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#53

Post by bendbro »

Afforess wrote: post #32
imgabe wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loans have to be repaid at some point. That does not avoid the tax, it just delays it.

Not true. Perpetuity's exist. https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/perpetuity.asp

That has zero relevance here

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#54

Post by gigel82 »

atlgator wrote: post #49

As others have stated, the article conflates income taxes with capital gains taxes. It also conflates asset ownership with income. Saying someone is "worth" a certain amount simply because they have a large stake in a corporation is an oversimplification. What they really own are illiquid assets, intellectual property, etc. Put to use, they produce income for the corporation as well as it's shareholders and employees…

You mean shareholders, not employees.

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#55

Post by mupuff1234 »

aaronschroeder wrote: post #17

But what is the solution? Most wealth of people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos is tied to ownership shares in their companies. I don't think it's fair to force them to sell shares so they can cover higher taxes. I also fear efforts to extract more tax money from them will ultimately just raise the bill for the middle class. The ultra wealthy can afford to hire a team of accountants to find the loopholes while small bu…

Why is it not fair to force them? I don't think it's any more or less fair than forcing people to pay income tax.

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#56

Post by tldrthelaw »

sec400 wrote: post #27

If anyone understands the reasoning behind the US capping your deductible net capital loss in any tax year at $3,000 vs allowing your full capital losses to be offset I'd be interested.

One big reason is to push "people" that are basically engaging in a trade or business in to being a formal business, and taking the losses as business losses.

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#57

Post by daenz »

Politicians are just business people who haven't learned how to provide value in a free market. They still want money and power, but without providing things that people are willing to pay for. It is for this reason, I will never trust a politician to be benevolent when they want to increase taxes to prevent people from making "too much money." It's all an elaborate game, based on greed and envy, promising fairness, but actually stealing more from your pockets. Beware.

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#58

Post by zorak8me »

aaronschroeder wrote: post #17

But what is the solution? Most wealth of people like Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos is tied to ownership shares in their companies. I don't think it's fair to force them to sell shares so they can cover higher taxes. I also fear efforts to extract more tax money from them will ultimately just raise the bill for the middle class. The ultra wealthy can afford to hire a team of accountants to find the loopholes while small bu…

One solution- if someone is taking out personal loans that function like income, let’s tax it like income. If someone really wants to live on 80k a year, that’s fine. But if they’re reporting 80k income but spending 10M, maybe they should be paying their fair share on that.

Edit- this has the benefit of completely avoiding the issue of unrealized gains and sticks to the issue of income...

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#59

Post by imgabe »

arn wrote: post #23
astuyvenberg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is when the ultra-wealthy take out loans against their investment assets (and thus, those unrealized capital gains). By doing that, ultra-wealthy _are_ realizing the value of their investments without being taxed. That's how this wealth is being accessed, and that's a large component of what drives these ultra-low tax rates for the ultra-wealthy.

Seems the solution to that (if u think it’s a problem) is eliminating step up basis. The reason that works is that basis is reset at death.

Estate taxes make a lot more sense. Heirs don’t need to get free billions of dollars for doing nothing and I have no problems with taxing dead people.

Re: Tax details of US super-rich allegedly leaked

#60

Post by sneak »

H8crilA wrote: post #45
kevinsundar wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then HELOC would be taxed which many middle class people rely on. Also its a loan so it need to be paid back. Will payments on private loans be deducted from income then?

This is not on topic, but to me it's ridiculous that something like HELOC exists and is somehow widely accepted. Like dude, you'll never pay down that debt. Your house is not an ATM machine.

What's ridiculous about borrowing against equity? They repay when they sell the home.
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