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Business Requirements are Bullshit

steve-yegge.blogspot.com

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Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#61

Post by edw519 »

jimbokun wrote: post #58
mechanical_fish wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of the problem is that talking about the analysis process is like writing a textbook on romance. How do you fall in love? Is there a set of best practices and a six-sigma process? Well, no. It's an art. It depends entirely on the situation and on the parties involved. You get better at it with practice. There are rules of thumb that are definitely helpful, but you have to know when to break them. Unfortunately,…

"How do you fall in love? Is there a set of best practices and a six-sigma process?" I don't know, but "The Six-sigma Process for Romance; Taking the Guesswork out of Finding Love" sounds like the title of a New York Times Bestseller to me.

Sounds like a good way to address "Startup Ideas We'd Like to Fund" #8 - Dating :-)

http://ycombinator.com/ideas.html

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#62

Post by gcv »

akeefer wrote: post #52

I'd like to point out that this article completely ignores most specialty or enterprise markets. As a maker of insurance software, we employ some people who were former insurance agents/adjusters, but none of our developers are, and our only real hope for understanding exactly what has to go into something like a policy administration system is to get out there and talk to customers and potential customers. Even with…

True enough. I deal with "enterprise" software all the time, and I found that it is all horrific. Terrible UIs, almost invariably terrible performance, chronic instability. I'm afraid that, if Steve is right and that to build something good it must be built for the builder, there will never be good "enterprise" software.

Also: requirement gathering in that market is just as frustrating as Steve says it is in the consumer market. I've dealt with lots of people who ask for features and then change their minds or realize they didn't really know what they wanted.

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#63

Post by gcv »

edw519 wrote: post #6

I have read Steve's articles before with a certain amount of respect, but this time he addresses an area very near and dear to me, and all I can say about this one is: I call bullshit. This article was so full of it, the more I read, the more I had to change into higher waders. As I normally do when responding to a post, I started pulling out the statements I wanted to respond to, highlighting them, and putting my re…

Based on your comment, you basically agree with Steve's argument. You agree with him that "grilling" and "role playing" don't work. This is precisely what he meant. He then goes on to argue that people should build products that they want for themselves. You want people who build products to "live [their users'] lives" in order to understand the users' tasks. Sounds quite similar to me.

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#64

Post by menloparkbum »

edw519 wrote: post #24
mattmcknight wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You get with them and "live their lives" and suffer with them, understanding what they must accomplish, how they must do it, and what's stopping them now. " This is a great idea, and the real way to address the problem Steve suggests: Become the business. However, the majority of your criticism of Steve is way off base, because the methods he describes are not strawmen, but the actual methods described in most of th…

...actual methods described in most of the software engineering requirements books... Thank you, Matt. You have just demonstrated my number one concern about the nature of discourse here on hacker news. The issue of "book contents" vs. real world experience. I don't know you and certainly don't mean to pick on you, but calling my criticism of Steve's article "way off base" merits this response... First a little of my…

The "business requirements gathering" Yegge is railing against isn't just book knowledge, it is standard operating procedure at most "consultancy" type shops. Even large product firms and small product startups do it. He gives an example of doing it at HP.

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#65

Post by jimbokun »

pongle wrote: post #21

Hmm, I'm not convinced about the "only build what you are going to use" argument. The best example I can think of is pace-makers (or any other form of life-saving equipment). A manufacturer of these devices cannot be a user, because they'd be dead...

"A manufacturer of these devices cannot be a user, because they'd be dead..."

Well, unless you're Tony Stark.

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#66

Post by kirubakaran »

biohacker42 wrote: post #23

Good rant, but I want to talk about dog poop. Surely there must be an enzyme cocktail that can evaporate poop! You would not use it indoors, only for outdoor use. But there must be something that will decompose dog poo super fast. Any organic chemists here?

Genetically engineered dogs that excrete sealed tubes will put you out of business.

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#67

Post by astine »

stcredzero wrote: post #32
pongle wrote: post #21

Hmm, I'm not convinced about the "only build what you are going to use" argument. The best example I can think of is pace-makers (or any other form of life-saving equipment). A manufacturer of these devices cannot be a user, because they'd be dead...

I'll bet that a pacemaker embedded software developer who personally knew patients with a pacemaker and hung out with them every day would be a whole lot more motivated.

Just to add to that: I imagine that the makers of the first pacemakers were doctors who were better in tune with the need than the patients. In fact, I'm pretty sure that doctor, not the patient, really counts as the target market. He's the one the diagnoses the problem (and understands the need); he's the one that actually orders the devices; he's the one that actually orders the devices. The patient generally only needs to know that he needs one, and that it's going to be installed.

In the same vein, I'll bet that if actual accountants were to design a piece of accounting software, it would probably rock pretty hard. (Assuming of course, that the accountants in question were also competent designers/developers.)

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#68

Post by tidra14 »

I think what the article was saying is: Use common sense

And: People do not know what they want, or to be more precise, decisions of liking or not liking something are made seconds before the person becomes concious of their choice, so most of the people's desires are subconscious and what they say they like is simply a justification and not their true wants. (which has been proven through psychology research)

Of course both the advices are sound, but man what awful and utterly terrible writing.

The guy is patronising, his speech is in your face and he has no consideration whatsoever for my time. He babbles and rambles about useless stuff when I simply want to get to the point of what he is saying and move on.

So to give him a bit of his own medicine, was he actually writing for himself? Or was he writing for others?

The answer is rhetorical of course, he knows his stuff so there's no need to write what he knows unless it is aimed at others. So he is not writing about himself he is writing about others.

Now that he wrote for others was his writing mediocre?

Perhaps, I certainly think so, but was it how should I put it, popular? Well 64 comments from fellow hackers, loads more in his own blogg, probably loads of nutters linked to it.

So would he care to define mediocre?

I just do not know how anyone can read his blog to be honest.

Hello by the way, my very first comment, I'm Andrew, Nice to meet you all :)

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#69

Post by sapphirecat »

edw519 wrote: post #51
Retric wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most: ERP, accounting, banking, claims processing, ecommerce, order entry software sucks . Scientific software is often started by someone who uses it and tends to work well.

Most: ERP, accounting, banking, claims processing, ecommerce, order entry software sucks. You're probably right about that. But enough of it works to run the world. No small feat.

There's a yawning chasm between "works" and "doesn't suck".

Re: Business Requirements are Bullshit

#70

Post by Leon »

kirubakaran wrote: post #66
biohacker42 wrote: post #23

Good rant, but I want to talk about dog poop. Surely there must be an enzyme cocktail that can evaporate poop! You would not use it indoors, only for outdoor use. But there must be something that will decompose dog poo super fast. Any organic chemists here?

Genetically engineered dogs that excrete sealed tubes will put you out of business.

Robot dogs will put you out of business.
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