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To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#51

Post by hungryforcodes »

coderintherye wrote: post #43
Animats wrote: post #37

The article has a good intro, and then never goes on to discuss the "key strengths". It's just clickbait. They're also late to the party on this. The US professional military has been discussing this for over a decade. There have already been more than a half dozen articles on drones in Parameters, the U.S. Army War College's journal. "The coercive logic of militant drone use" [1] is worth reading. This covers how no…

>So far, that article indicates, drones have been unable to yield a decisive advantage in any conflict Drones gave Azerbaijan a decisive advantage in the recent conflict with Armenia: https://www.csis.org/analysis/air-and-missile-war-nagorno-ka...

Only once. Everyone has paid attention, and the next drone attacks will be suitably defended against. The fact is the "killer bot" scenario is just a one time thing. After it happens, all cities or armies or whatever, will have very solid defences installed against swarming or even just loitering bots. Flying drones are incredibly fragile and exposed. They are slow and easy to kill.

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#52

Post by mLuby »

Animats wrote: post #42
nradov wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no practical way to use EMP as a defense against small drones. That's something that only works in movies, not real life. Generating enough power to disrupt electronics at a useful range requires a powerful explosion. The military uses a mix of jammers, small missiles, guns, and (soon) lasers.

There are some jammers, but they're not too useful if the drone is programmed to head out of jammer range if jammed. Currently, the most useful weapons against small drones are compressed air guns that fire nets.[1] [1] https://youtu.be/M6tT1GapCe4

If we're talking a commercial quadcopter drone, is it feasible to auto-target it via microphones and then shoot some CIWS at it? Something like this https://youtu.be/LThD0FMvTFU?t=42 but drones and bullets instead of mortars and lasers.

It's be nice if you could slap an anti-drone turret onto your vehicle to protect the airspace for a hundred meters.

Maybe jamming exceeds commercial drones' flight ceiling, but if not, dropping stuff from high up always does damage.

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#53

Post by abz10 »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #33
abz10 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike a bullet you could hear an RC airplane coming.

Not when it is diving down vertically, from high above.

Off the shelf RC airplanes have terrible unpowered terminal velocity. You'd have to custom build to get anything decent. Which is more difficult than strapping a knife to a RC plane.

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#54

Post by magicsmoke »

justaguy88 wrote: post #12
magicsmoke wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A drone with the same range as a missile would be indistinguishable from a missile. A drone without the same range as a missile would likely have its carrier detected and destroyed before it can get in range to release it's drones. Drones are great for irregular forces that can hide among civilian populations or in dense terrain to have short ranged air strike capabilities cheaply, but they are not substitute for lon…

The drone swarm can have a carrier vehicle, like a (perhaps autonomous) big plane or sub to get it within range

And I suppose the carrier vehicle is somehow invulnerable to missiles? In fact, why wouldn't it just carry missiles in the first place?

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#55

Post by mLuby »

LargoLasskhyfv wrote: post #33
abz10 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike a bullet you could hear an RC airplane coming.

Not when it is diving down vertically, from high above.

Like this RC airplane (drone) modeled after a WW2 dive bomber. https://youtu.be/ogxKvQeVqqc?t=583

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#56

Post by Animats »

mLuby wrote: post #52
Animats wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some jammers, but they're not too useful if the drone is programmed to head out of jammer range if jammed. Currently, the most useful weapons against small drones are compressed air guns that fire nets.[1] [1] https://youtu.be/M6tT1GapCe4

If we're talking a commercial quadcopter drone, is it feasible to auto-target it via microphones and then shoot some CIWS at it? Something like this https://youtu.be/LThD0FMvTFU?t=42 but drones and bullets instead of mortars and lasers. It's be nice if you could slap an anti-drone turret onto your vehicle to protect the airspace for a hundred meters. Maybe jamming exceeds commercial drones' flight ceiling, but if not…

There are a number of bulky systems intended for larger targets which will work against drones, but most are not very portable. Ship-mounted systems such as CWIS do work.[1] But all those shells that don't hit the target land someplace.

[1] https://youtu.be/3UVuV5WvraQ

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#57

Post by philsnow »

Daniel Suarez has a 2012 near-future novel that features this kind of thing [0]. In the book there are drones swarms armed with single-use tube guns, essentially, Saturday Night Specials [1].

I shill for his books regularly on HN. They're a guilty pleasure for me: snappy, easy to blow through in a single sitting, and are each begging for a movie adaptation (think "The Martian"). Start with Daemon.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_Decision [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_night_special

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#58

Post by mLuby »

Animats wrote: post #56
mLuby wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're talking a commercial quadcopter drone, is it feasible to auto-target it via microphones and then shoot some CIWS at it? Something like this https://youtu.be/LThD0FMvTFU?t=42 but drones and bullets instead of mortars and lasers. It's be nice if you could slap an anti-drone turret onto your vehicle to protect the airspace for a hundred meters. Maybe jamming exceeds commercial drones' flight ceiling, but if not…

There are a number of bulky systems intended for larger targets which will work against drones, but most are not very portable. Ship-mounted systems such as CWIS do work.[1] But all those shells that don't hit the target land someplace. [1] https://youtu.be/3UVuV5WvraQ

> But all those shells that don't hit the target land someplace.

Just don't miss! It's only a few hundred meters out.

Oh CWIS are only ship-mounted? I thought it was a general term. I like PDC better anyway. #TheExpanse

Nice video—are those all tracers though?

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#59

Post by abz10 »

korse wrote: post #26
abz10 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike a bullet you could hear an RC airplane coming.

Actually this isn't a big problem. Quads or RC planes at a reasonable height aren't audible. Add in night and lack of running lights and no one is going to notice. If you are using a wing, then you just program your robot to come in high, cut it's engine and continue on a glide trajectory to the target. The flap servos make nearly no noise. If you've got a quad, come in fast and basically huck the vehicle at the targ…

Ardupilot will not hit a human size target. People can barely do it. You're not going to lob a tumbling quad at a target with any accuracy that's a joke.

To do this with any reliability you need custom software and probably hardware. It'll look more like a smart munition. But it'll also be more difficult than strapping a knife to a RC plane.

Re: To protect against weaponized drones, we must understand their key strengths

#60

Post by sliken »

hungryforcodes wrote: post #51
coderintherye wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>So far, that article indicates, drones have been unable to yield a decisive advantage in any conflict Drones gave Azerbaijan a decisive advantage in the recent conflict with Armenia: https://www.csis.org/analysis/air-and-missile-war-nagorno-ka...

Only once. Everyone has paid attention, and the next drone attacks will be suitably defended against. The fact is the "killer bot" scenario is just a one time thing. After it happens, all cities or armies or whatever, will have very solid defences installed against swarming or even just loitering bots. Flying drones are incredibly fragile and exposed. They are slow and easy to kill.

Slow and easy to kill? Seen a drone race? At what range and with what weapon would they be easy to kill? How long would the kill take? At what range could the drone be killed at?

Sure often drones fly in straight lines or hover. But in an adversarial environment they could easily move pseudo randomly and be quite difficult to kill.

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