Live data from Hacker News

A Project of One’s Own

paulgraham.com

161–170 of 384 posts

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#161

Good essay overall, but this footnote in particular stood out to me: > [2] Tiger parents, as parents so often do, are fighting the last war. Grades mattered more in the old days when the route to success was to acquire credentials while ascending some predefined ladder. But it's just as well that their tactics are focused on grades. How awful it would be if they invaded the territory of projects, and thereby gave the…

Grades still matter for the vast majority of people who aren’t born into mega rich families. Most people don’t become Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and even those that do benefit greatly from the pedigrees that academic achievement opens up (going to top colleges, working at desirable employers, although grades matter little there unless you’re right out of college). For everyone else grades are still used for trackin…

You've hit on it, grades matter right up until you're out of school. For most people, they matter for getting a first job (because there usually isn't much else to serve as a filter). After that, nobody will ever ask for or look at them again.

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#162

Good essay overall, but this footnote in particular stood out to me: > [2] Tiger parents, as parents so often do, are fighting the last war. Grades mattered more in the old days when the route to success was to acquire credentials while ascending some predefined ladder. But it's just as well that their tactics are focused on grades. How awful it would be if they invaded the territory of projects, and thereby gave the…

Called “Tiger parents” because this is common in China? Coined by Yale Law School professor Amy Chua who have Chinese parents.

The term "Tiger Mom" became popular when Amy Chua (Chinese American) wrote a book about how she pushed her kids hard. I am sure the term existed before but I am not sure!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amy_Chua

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#163
post #58

For me the thing that distinguishes hobby from work is the second 90% of the project. Working on the ideas, the architecture, the interface and piecing it all together is fun and I don't mind staying up long if I do say a game jam. However, once everything is up and running, you get into the tedium of making the project actually work. This might be fixing all books or making sure that the door on your tree house can,…

Sadly, in my experience at least, most commercial software projects also suffer from the "treehouse door doesn't close" problem. I think far too many "professional" developers give up after good enough.

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#164
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was asking how to get kids to explore things where they might find something that sparks them to desire to spend time on "A Project of One's Own". Competition in school or school-like activities is a fabricated incentive that doesn't have anything to do with kids doing what Paul is talking about with "A Project of One's Own". Chasing a GPA leads to a feedback loop akin to "keeping up with the Joneses" and basically…

Where do you find the balance between spending time maximizing your child's entry into a safe and secure future versus entertaining their passions? Not that being passionate about something and school-like activities are mutually exclusive anyway. Anyway, kids are far too young to decide what they want to do, so college is a good time and place for that already. Most students coming in to top universities come in und…

I actually learned this lesson playing World of Warcraft, a Massively Multiplayer Online game. You see in WoW there is a huge timesink of effort required to beat the game. We're talking thousands of hours of gameplay. It's a social game, and the more skilled the people that you are with, the quicker that comes. It's also an RPG, meaning that you need to do x to do x+1.

The playerbase therefore learns the most optimal way to do everything the fastest possible way, and they call that the meta. The meta is almost always monotonous and boring. It's a terrible way to play the game, but if it gets you to be playing with a cool group of people, people will bore themselves to death.

Another aspect of the meta is that being an RPG, you are just about forced to stick to one character. When a patch is added to the game and your character goes from the storngest to the weakest, your social status drops considerably. But no problem, because in a few months another patch might launch that switches the balance. The group of people that you deal with therefore need to treat you well when you are weak so that you will stay with them when you are strong.

The neat thing with WoW is it's 15 years old, there have been many many cycles, and all of the people driven to play this way have long since burned themselves out. We see numbers for what they are. We see the social status games.

The balance is to ignore the numbers and find the people. The people going to Stanford might just be on average better people than going to your local State University, but if you can find people to fill out your social circle within your State university that meet your criteria, do that. If you can sacrifice a little bit of effort to move yourself somewhere slightly better to get around better people, maybe that's worth it. But don't sacrifice everything for Moloch.

And the lesson you learn once you give up the numbers, that we all intuitively know anyway, is that you very quickly get BIGGER numbers than those chasing it. Capability comes from the feedback of learning and doing. When you do stuff for fun and feel pain when you mess up, you become motivated to learn, which gives you more opportunity to play. So there was actually no balance after-all, the dominant choice was always to play.

So here's to play. Here's to WoW. A gigantic waste of time that has taught me many of lives most important lessons.

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#165

Good essay overall, but this footnote in particular stood out to me: > [2] Tiger parents, as parents so often do, are fighting the last war. Grades mattered more in the old days when the route to success was to acquire credentials while ascending some predefined ladder. But it's just as well that their tactics are focused on grades. How awful it would be if they invaded the territory of projects, and thereby gave the…

That's because parents are afraid that their child won't be competitive enough to have a decent life. If only parents were relaxed, if only they knew that their child can live full life without grinding through exercises. Then child just would pursue what they love, interested (unless it's unaffordable to their social strata). I wonder what we can do today to make this happen sooner. On the side note. There is a grea…

> If only parents were relaxed, if only they knew that their child can live full life without grinding through exercises.

Isn't that how young people end up with liberal arts degrees saddled with debt they have little chance of ever repaying? I guess it might be a full life still but I haven't met many people in this position who enjoyed it.

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#166

> If I had to choose between my kids getting good grades and working on ambitious projects of their own, I'd pick the projects. I've been thinking about this a lot recently. Unfortunately kids in Sweden have to attend school by law, homeschooling is not allowed. By extension, you're not allowed to go on trips, or take any other time off without permission from the school. As my kid is only 3, I'm not sure how strict…

If that is at all an option for you, cross the belt over to Denmark, not only is homeschooling allowed, but you can get 85 (I think) percent of what is paid towards a normal school to be paid towards a school of your choosing in case you want your kid to attend a private school, making private schools very affordable.

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#167
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah this is horseshit for everybody except maybe founders. I'm selling my labor for money. If I work harder and the company does better, this translates into almost no extra benefits to me, with all of the net benefit going to the owners. I want "work/life balance" because I am being paid for a very specific amount of work and I want my employer to keep its nose out of the rest of my time. At least with a founder th…

"this is horseshit for everybody except maybe founders" Well, who do you think PG's audience is? A 45-yo welder? A school teacher who loves their job? Or even someone happy at their FAANG job? This advice isn't meant for them. Like most PG essays, it's obviously meant for people who want to be founders (or already are). You might think it's dumb. But given he's seen people go out and do this, what, 5,000 times now? (…

PG is making large claims about the nature of schooling. The essay is not just for founders. He laments that people sit in class learning about Darwin rather than building treehouses and does not write that this only applies to a tiny minority of people who he expects to become entrepreneurs.

I also think it can be bad advice for founders too.

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#168
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I'm pretty sure that Christopher Alexander makes this point in one of his books, maybe A Pattern Language He says that suburbs are configured "wrong", in a way that's antithetical to life. Because the children go to school somewhere nearby, where they are babysat, and the fathers (at that time) commute to work in the city. And the children have no idea what their parents do, and that is alienating. The configura…

> Children want to learn from "real" work, not the fake work of school, which is why so many of them can't sit still in class, and get poor grades despite being smart, etc. Furthermore, you could argue that not paying attention to more abstract lessons is actually way more rational of a decision than sitting straight and taking notes. The human brain is expensive to run, and our ancestors didn't survive by squanderin…

So much right. Children do pay attention and many times get glued to the thing they see we adults really value. Since for most of the families formal education is not the thing their world revolves around (except people in university jobs/professors), children don't gel as well with the books, as they do with other things we value (for example, our phones or TV).

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One essay by an academic, and the other by a creator It's a bit unfair to paint PG as just an "academic". Sure he basically rushed from academia straight into the business world, but he's created things as well. I mean being an investment capitalist will hardly compete with creating ambitious works like Principia Mathematica, but PG has written a few books on the side. Some of his earlier stuff, like On Lisp isn't…

The GP was saying Russel is "just an academic", while PG is painted as a "creator".

I think that was not_jd_salinger's joke, challenging the tacit assumption that academia produces nothing of value or practical worth whilst business people are inherently creative and value creating.

Re: A Project of One’s Own

#170
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People need incentives, and being competitive in school-like activities provides them. Universities have been moving away from evaluating candidates from raw academic or scholastic perspectives. For instance, removing standardized testing from the process. [1,2,3] This has raised concerns and considerable pushback from parents. It raises the uncertainty of admission, even if they raise a child to do everything right…

> being competitive in school-like activities provides them To an extent. I keep wondering, wouldn't it be better if schools/universities were structured as PvE challenges, not PvP ones? Trying to elicit a culture of collaboration, instead of pitting students against each other? I may be strongly biased, because I hate competition outside of games[0], and competitive incentives generally make me stop caring. -- [0] -…

If I was a Professor teaching the same class to two different sections, it would be really neat to give the entire winning section extra credit based on the difference between the average values of the two sections. This would encourage group study and would ultimately lead to students helping their other classmates out. And since teaching is the best way to learn, everyone would do better.

Maybe you don't even need two sections. Just split the class into two teams? Has this been tried anywhere?

Post reply on HN