Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports • Hacker News Board

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#101

Post by matthewn » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 4:01 PM UTC

jabkobob wrote: post #97

asadotzler wrote: post #21

It's my opinion that when you call a Thunderbird developer "some simian" and when you tell them to "Die die die die" and "Seriously, screw you" and you say things like "You know, every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer] I just want to reach out through the intertubes and cut off his damned fingers to prevent him ever writing any code..." and when you're warned in a very civil tone with a cle…

In defense of the bully, at least he is completely clear about his feelings, and it is obvious that he is just insulting. I know from experience that is is extremly frustrating and deeply insulting when a developer marks a valid bug report as "NOTABUG" or "WONTFIX", no matter how friendly he is while doing so. When somebody closes a bug report without taking any action whatsoever, without even acknowledging the probl…

> It doesn't matter if the developer uses polite wording, I'm still insulted.

The drama you generate inside your own head is not the developer's responsibility.

Closing a bug as "NOTABUG" is not an insult. Closing a bug as "NOTABUG" means the developer does not think there is a bug. If you take it as an insult, then take responsibility for your own feelings. Don't blame the developer.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#102

Post by mike-cardwell » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 4:28 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #99

mike-cardwell wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you let people treat you this way because they also happen to provide some value, then you're enabling them and encouraging the behaviour. People who behave in this manner should be ostracised.

Be careful about who you may have just ostracized. To play devil's advocate, do you have any idea where we would be without Linus Torvalds, Theo De Raadt, and Ulrich Drepper? They are somewhat known for their public moments sounding just like this guy. Personalities are complex. We can't just cherry pick the attributes of a person and separate those from those which we perceive to deviate from the ideal. Whether this…

"do you have any idea where we would be without Linus Torvalds, Theo De Raadt, and Ulrich Drepper?"

I'm not suggesting they'd disappear. I'm suggesting that they'd be forced into behaving in a more respectful manner to people.

People stop acting like tools when other people stop putting up with it.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#103

Post by asadotzler » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 5:08 PM UTC

mjstumpf wrote: post #93

thaumaturgy wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so I read this bug report. I think it says a lot that the focus from you (and, it looks like, the representative rest of Mozilla) is on the perceived "bullying" (it's not bullying) and the "incivility" (give me a break), and not on the actual problem being reported by the user. You want us to consider context when talking about his most recent bug report being banned? OK, then we should also consider context when…

Most other people here are discussing the degree to which he was/was not a bully. You've actually hit the nail on the head: this bug submitter is _absolutely right_ (old bug and new bug). Why not also remap ctrl-c to paste and ctrl-v to delete line? I'm not sure if it is a sense of humor thing, but I don't get anger from his bugs at all. A bit of frustration, and colorful language. But that's not rage. He's profoundl…

No one deleted his bug reports. This isn't about whether or not Thunderbird has bugs. The Thunderbird developers are not ignoring the substance of his reports (mostly duplicates which have already been reported by people spewing far less venom.)

This is about this particular individual and whether he was adding more value than he was taking from the project. The decision was made that he was hurting more than helping and so he was kicked out.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#104

Post by asadotzler » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 5:16 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #99

mike-cardwell wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you let people treat you this way because they also happen to provide some value, then you're enabling them and encouraging the behaviour. People who behave in this manner should be ostracised.

Be careful about who you may have just ostracized. To play devil's advocate, do you have any idea where we would be without Linus Torvalds, Theo De Raadt, and Ulrich Drepper? They are somewhat known for their public moments sounding just like this guy. Personalities are complex. We can't just cherry pick the attributes of a person and separate those from those which we perceive to deviate from the ideal. Whether this…

" if colorful language is the price I have to pay for their contributions to society, that value proposition is still a no brainer."

Except that you're not paying any price at all. It's the Thunderbird community paying that price and there is no reason for them to do so. If your list of his accomplishments included making Thunderbird a great piece of software, we might be having a slightly different conversation. Also, kicking him out of Mozilla's bug system very likely has zero impact on your emacs and core GNU software.

IMO, being a hero on one project does not give you the right to be a bully on another.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#105

Post by asadotzler » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 5:17 PM UTC

aprrrr wrote: post #89

asadotzler wrote: post #21

It's my opinion that when you call a Thunderbird developer "some simian" and when you tell them to "Die die die die" and "Seriously, screw you" and you say things like "You know, every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer] I just want to reach out through the intertubes and cut off his damned fingers to prevent him ever writing any code..." and when you're warned in a very civil tone with a cle…

The comment you reference was made in July 2010. The bug report that triggered the banning was made a week ago, and just sounded petulant. It didn't make any personal statements about anyone. Nursing a grudge against someone for a year, banning him for a grumpy bug report, then spamming discussion threads with hand-wringing about what a toxic abusive bully he was really seems like a waste of time to me. I guess you c…

It was not simply two bug reports a year apart. There were many more reports and multiple warnings given. I highlighted some of the most egregious but it's not an exhaustive list.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#106

Post by JimBlandy » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 5:50 PM UTC

I don't understand why so many commenters on this thread consider verbal abuse a mark of sincerity. You can say everything you need to say without it. Mlynarik has pursued this style of interaction with people for decades, so it doesn't express any particular intensity of feeling; he just likes crapping on people. Maybe you don't mind reading it when it's not directed at you, but why should the recipient put up with it?

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#107

Post by jabkobob » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 5:51 PM UTC

matthewn wrote: post #101

jabkobob wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In defense of the bully, at least he is completely clear about his feelings, and it is obvious that he is just insulting. I know from experience that is is extremly frustrating and deeply insulting when a developer marks a valid bug report as "NOTABUG" or "WONTFIX", no matter how friendly he is while doing so. When somebody closes a bug report without taking any action whatsoever, without even acknowledging the probl…

> It doesn't matter if the developer uses polite wording, I'm still insulted. The drama you generate inside your own head is not the developer's responsibility. Closing a bug as "NOTABUG" is not an insult. Closing a bug as "NOTABUG" means the developer does not think there is a bug. If you take it as an insult, then take responsibility for your own feelings. Don't blame the developer.

Yes, I take responsibility for my own feelings. I know what it's like from the other side too: as a software developer I can't accomodate every user request. It's difficult to tell a customer that I think they are wrong, or that their problem is not important enough in some grand scheme of things. And it is very easy to insult someone without using any expletives.

I'm not saying that a developer should leave bug reports open to avoid any possible offense. But they must be aware that the act of ignoring a perfectly valid issue reported by a passionate user can be demeaning in itself.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#108

Post by bwinton » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 7:13 PM UTC

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #99

mike-cardwell wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you let people treat you this way because they also happen to provide some value, then you're enabling them and encouraging the behaviour. People who behave in this manner should be ostracised.

Be careful about who you may have just ostracized. To play devil's advocate, do you have any idea where we would be without Linus Torvalds, Theo De Raadt, and Ulrich Drepper? They are somewhat known for their public moments sounding just like this guy. Personalities are complex. We can't just cherry pick the attributes of a person and separate those from those which we perceive to deviate from the ideal. Whether this…

How many brilliant developers have you not worked with, because they looked at that kind of comment, and decided that they would rather spend their spare time working on a project where they _wouldn't_ get told that their fingers should be cut off to prevent them ever writing any code?

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#109

Post by jerrya » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 7:22 PM UTC

nsomaru wrote: post #87

jerrya wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" I'm amazed when people defend bullies because they've got some kind of oldschool hacker credibility." I actually said nothing like this, did I? What I actually said, a) he's has a reputation as a very smart individual, and for good reason, and b) his bug report specifically was not bullying at all, but was precise, accurate, and passionate. For what it's worth though, I don't find his calling a developer to be a si…

There is a decided difference between emotion and reason. Frustration is an expression of emotion and has no place in a bug report. A bug report should factually describe a problem and the steps a dev can take to reproduce them. Your frustration is a symptom of your own unmet expectations. The problem with _any_ expectation is that (being constant) it is bound to be unmet, eventually, given that the world is in a sta…

I agree with you that the title of this post is click bait, however, this statement:

" Frustration is an expression of emotion and has no place in a bug report."

Again, you're right, and again, you're wrong. Now we need moderators and rules and timeouts and bannination and more rules on how what as developers expect from bug reports?

It's hard enough for users to make bug reports.

What I want from bug reports is accuracy, precision, specification, and oh my god, a reproducible test case.

If after registering for a bug account, after taking the time to create a reproducible test case, after taking the time to enter that in my reporting system, if they want to call me a simian -- I'm okay with that.

Re: Mozilla now banning people for grumpy bug reports

#110

Post by bwinton » Fri, Jul 08, 2011, 8:38 PM UTC

Morendil wrote: post #90

asadotzler wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Morendil, his comments are often very much directed at individuals and not at features or bugs. Calling a developer a "simian" and shouting "screw you" and actually saying "You know, every time I see a comment from [a specific Thunderbird developer] I just want to reach out through the intertubes and cut off his damned fingers to prevent him ever writing any code" are all direct and personal attacks that should not b…

I'm quite sensitive to bullying, having often been a victim, online and off. Part of me wants to agree with you. Richard does "name names" and directly voice an opinion of another person's abilities and a judgement of their actions. One of the comments in this HN thread reads: "Get off your high horse you fucking moron". That is abusive. Never mind that this comment is in response to someone I happen to disagree with…

"the impression I'm taking away from this dispute is that Richard is being banned not so much for his tone, but more for saying things that are true and that the people wielding the power to censor him are unwilling to hear."

I'm saddened that you have this impression, given that most of the things he complains about are duplicates of bugs that other people were able to report in a civil manner. As a developer, I know my software has bugs, and am appreciative when users let me know what they are. As a person, I don't feel I should have to put up with sarcastic, snarky bullshit when finding out about the bugs, or when trying to fix them.

"The success of open source rests on participation, and participation is a two-way street."

I know of at least one Thunderbird developer who quit because the atmosphere in Bugzilla was hostile. I don't know how many people decided not to participate because of comments like Richard's. Participation isn't the same as welcoming everybody, no matter what their effect on the community.

Also, I would totally read a blog post about the power politics of open source. :)