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Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

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Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have geniunely considered switching away from data science altogether for this reason.

Why? The only other branch of IT that pays as good as Data Science/Engineering is Blockchain Developer. The field of AI applications will only grow and thus career opportunities as well. Are people in serious finance bothered that there are a bazzilion of scams every day, including aforementioned blockchains? No. Why should competent AI practitioners care as well?

> Why should competent AI practitioners care as well?

AI took decades to recover from its first boom-bust cycle. No matter how competent you were back then, getting hired or funded to run your AI business/academic project/whatever was hard because the first wave of AI failed to deliver.

Sure, now AI/ML/Data Science is very commercially/acadamically viable, but the hype has also grown spectacularly. If the general public fails to manage expectations, another AI winter cannot be ruled out.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#42

I would really like to get a job in medical ML, but without a related degree it seems impossible. I'm "only" a Veterinarian and I don't even get interviews...

Why not build something on your spare time and try to create your own job then?

Founding a startup is not an option available to everyone. It takes money and other resources. And for some of the same reasons that I am unemployed despite valuable skills, it is virtually impossible for me to get any funding.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#43
A lot of these issues also have to do with the publishing system.

There is no incentive in publishing stuff that don't work even though they were reasonable things to try. This indirectly pushes a lot of bad/flawed/incomplete papers and results to be published. Even if your methodology is flawed but you try hard enough, you have a >0 probability of getting your paper published somewhere.

As part of a solution, I think we would benefit from the existence of prestigious journals for negative results, which would incentivise also publishing what doesn't work. This way researchers wouldn't have to try massaging their data and experiments until it looks like it works. They could just publish that it doesn't work, and it would be good for them too.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#44

I would really like to get a job in medical ML, but without a related degree it seems impossible. I'm "only" a Veterinarian and I don't even get interviews...

A friend of mine once got rejected from a big name company after a few months of interviews. Reason was that he did not have a PhD. It's hard to get into the business. You could try to start-up and then plan to get acquihired. Or go and do a PhD. It's never too late for more schooling.

I'm not getting into any PhD programs though, because my CV is essentially radioactive (I tried...). I'm not getting any funding for a startup, for much of the same reasons.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue with that is that misclassifying something in an image can have serious consequences. So unless ML is 100% accurate, you'll always want an alternative way to check if it's really an artifact or something serious, so, why bother making an accurate model when you'll still double check the results?

I don't follow. Why would anything need to be 100% accurate? Humans aren't 100% accurate, and there's no reason ML would need to be 100% accurate either.

We were talking not about about clear signs but about small signs that could be artifacts or actual issues. In that case you are going to have to do some complimentary or repeated tests to verify, so the ML output saying something is an artifact will have no effect on those procedures unless it's 100% accurate.

But in general, these are matters of life and death, literally. You're still going to have someone looking at the images and verifying the output. That limits a lot the potential cost benefits of these applications.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#46
post #5

This is true for every other domain. When every company calls itself a AI company these days. Therefore value of AI/ML and credibility gets diluted. It becomes very difficult to classify real orgs using hardcode stats from fake ones. When I hear "we are solving x with AI" or "AI driven", it gives me jitters.

The elephant in the room is that AI does not exist, even in "hardcore" orgs. A transformer model is not AI.

While I share the sentiment that the term "AI" is applied way too broadly these days, there is a point to be made that it's somewhat difficult to draw a clear line anyway.

Back in the early 20th century, chess was considered to be something only an intelligent agent can do. A few decades later programs became competent enough that it took a grand master to beat them. Today, it's hopeless to try and beat a chess program as a human.

The next barrier was NLP and understanding/generating text and natural speech. Speech recognition worked reasonably well 20 years ago and is close to human level today. Speech generation - given enough processing power - is now perfectly natural. Text understanding and generation is very close as well.

The development of AI bears an interesting resemblance to evolution in that sceptics are busy pointing to "missing links" and as soon as that link is discovered, they chase to the next one.

Intelligence itself is defined poorly enough as it is, and watering the term down by slapping the "AI"-label on everything doesn't help that. On the other hand, intelligence is a spectrum and on some aspects of that spectrum, machines have already surpassed humans decades ago (think of calculators, chess, memory, searching and indexing, etc.).

IMO, the most important distinction to be made is the difference between AGI and AI. A transformer model is AI in every useful definition of the term "intelligence", but it sure isn't "general intelligence" if only for the fact that it cannot actively query its environment for additional information and has no continuous stream of "consciousness".

Before we can dismiss a system as not being AI, we need a sharp enough definition of what we would define as AI first. A "I know it when I see it"-type of definition isn't helpful and always keeps the door open for the ultimate rejection: "but it still hasn't got a SOUL!"

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#47
post #8

Some radiologists think that AI will be really good for filtering out normal images, so that they only have to review anomalies. But I don't think that a model that detects diseases will be too successful, even if they manage to make it really work. For one, it's actually difficult to interpret and find signs in radiologic images. Obvious signs are obvious, but there are others that could be image artifacts, or just…

> modern machines can detect anomalies but doctors still learn how to interpret EKGs and double check what the machine says.

Uh, TBH no professional so much as glances through the automated EKG summary. It's utterly useless and could be deleted with zero consequences.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#48
post #8

Some radiologists think that AI will be really good for filtering out normal images, so that they only have to review anomalies. But I don't think that a model that detects diseases will be too successful, even if they manage to make it really work. For one, it's actually difficult to interpret and find signs in radiologic images. Obvious signs are obvious, but there are others that could be image artifacts, or just…

If we can have cheap scanners or other instruments to go with the AI, I think it could easily appear as a screening tool that less qualified medical professionals (midwives, nurses, GPs) or even the patients themselves can use. Those people already do various rough screening tests and refer the patient up the chain of expertise according to the outcome.

> If we can have cheap scanners or other instruments to go with the AI

That's a big if already. Not to mention that a lot of times you don't want to give unnecessary radiation to patients, so they wouldn't be interested in making, say, X-rays more accesible.

> screening tool that less qualified medical professionals (midwives, nurses, GPs) or even the patients themselves can use

But how beneficial would that be? When you need an scan, it's probable that something weird is happening, and you'll probably need more tests than just a scan, and also some specialist that knows which tests to order and what conditions to consider.

Once you think of it in that way, it makes less sense. You'd be investing money, resources, training, time into a solution that might benefit only a small subset of patients (those with something weird but that can easily be discarded by a cheap scanner with high certainty without needing an specialist), without even being sure of what actual clinical benefits you would produce. It's far better to invest and research in other areas.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. Why would anything need to be 100% accurate? Humans aren't 100% accurate, and there's no reason ML would need to be 100% accurate either.

We were talking not about about clear signs but about small signs that could be artifacts or actual issues. In that case you are going to have to do some complimentary or repeated tests to verify, so the ML output saying something is an artifact will have no effect on those procedures unless it's 100% accurate. But in general, these are matters of life and death, literally. You're still going to have someone looking…

I still don’t understand why decisions about life or death have to involve 100% certainty or 100% correctness. I would think that it’s the opposite, that when the stakes are high, you want anything that improves your odds. If your life were on the line, you’d accept treatments or diagnoses with much less than 100% certainty.

Re: Machine learning is booming in medicine, but also facing a credibility crisis

#50
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't follow. Why would anything need to be 100% accurate? Humans aren't 100% accurate, and there's no reason ML would need to be 100% accurate either.

Correct, the target should be instead better than Xth percentile humans across the majority of cases, with the failure modes categorized. I don't get this perfection requirement that gets put on so many systems here. No system is perfect, the question is what failure rate you accept.

You're looking at this in isolation instead of in the context of a diagnostic process. Thinking of medical ML models in terms of benchmarks does not make much sense, you're interested in whether they actually change the process.

So yeah, maybe you get a model with 5% false negatives where humans have 10% false negatives. That's good. However, when you go to apply that model in reality, what happens to those 5% where model and doctor disagrees? First, we should think about the kind of disagreement. In most of those cases I'd bet that the doctors see something wrong but can't say what, not that the model says "this is bad" and the doctor "it's not".

Second, we need to think about what happens when doctor and model disagree. As the model is not 100% accurate, the doctor doesn't know if the model is mistaken or if they're the ones mistaken, so they'll probably order more tests anyways. If it can be something serious, it's worth it to do an extra test to make sure. They'd probably ordered those tests anyways if they weren't sure of what was happening, model or not.

So what did the model for a single test change? Did it really change the diagnostic outcomes? What's the actual benefit of the model? How much it's worth to get from 10% to 5% false negatives with a model for a single test if just adding more tests (say, with the same 10% false negatives) to the mix can give you a 1%, 0.1% false negative rate?

That's my point. Unless accuracy is really high, ML models are not going to remove uncertainty in diagnostics, few diagnostics consist of just a single test. Benchmarking models against human performance in a single test is not a metric that can drive implementation in the real world.

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