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ST3000DM001

en.wikipedia.org

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Re: ST3000DM001

#221
I remember using a bunch of Seagate 7200.12 HDDs around 10-15 years ago.

After a couple years, I had multiple of them failing. Some of them were replaced by the shop I bought them at, some of them were replaced by Seagate directly. Every time, the data was lost.

At some point, when the 5th drive failed, I realized that the failure was due to a firmware issue, that could be fixed by upgrading the firmware using a TTL connection and a serial console. I did exactly that, my data was accessible again, and the drive never failed again (it's still running now).

I was very angry at Seagate and other vendors for sending replacement drives with the old firmware when it was known that the firmware would cause the problem again, while the new firmware was out and working correctly.

Re: ST3000DM001

#222

I don't know why anyone bothers to buy anything else than WD, seagate is making bad products for at least 10 years if not 15. Barracuda 7200.11 anyone? That was 12 years ago,I got a pair of Ironwolf 10TB, they failed in 6 months. How many seagates I saw failing? All - 30 - 50 God knows how many exactly. I have 10 years old WDs still running, actual powered on 6 years or so. I don't know why people are buying the same…

After the WD / Hitachi merger, there was an anti-trust case and WD was forced to sell some assets to Toshiba. Toshiba took on a huge portion of Hitachi's former business, and seems to have a solid business. Backblaze doesn't buy Toshiba because the sticker is in the wrong location (and Toshiba doesn't want to move the sticker), but otherwise... their Toshiba tests look pretty good.

Why does the location of the sticker matter?

Re: ST3000DM001

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a feeling that just comparing the numbers without looking at any of the logistics is just a convenient way to dismiss a theory you don't like. There's all kinds of things to think about like how 2% may be less than 100% but in an elastic supply of a globally distributed good, 2% of (total yearly) supply called upon all at once can be a _huge_ departure from the norm. Maybe the shortage isn't just a hard disk s…

Cant edit on phone but we can also consider the size of the drives. We can only guesstimate what sizes the NSA wanted but to your source we can say they needed 12 EB. Out of 150 million drives, there might not have been 4 million 3TB drives out there, this was 2014, maybe there was but they didn't want all the exact same drive, if you calculate that some of the drives are 2TB or 1TB the estimated numbers only get lar…

> I have a feeling that just comparing the numbers without looking at any of the logistics is just a convenient way to dismiss a theory you don't like.

I really have no feelings for this theory either way, I simply don't think it's realistic.

> There's all kinds of things to think about like how 2% may be less than 100% but in an elastic supply of a globally distributed good, 2% of (total yearly) supply called upon all at once can be a _huge_ departure from the norm.

I generally agree with that. However, for one, we're talking about consumer goods within a growing marked - a demand jump of 2% should be within expected deviation and not generate the problems we've seen there.

> Maybe the shortage isn't just a hard disk shortage but a shortage of shipping space to take those hard drives anywhere else but to the NSA.

3,5" hard drives have a volume of ~ 390.000 mm^3. Let's say that's 3.000.000 mm^3 shipped. That would allow ~10.854 drives in a standard container, for a total of 370 (assuming 4 million drives). A large container ship can pack 850,000 containers. So yes, it's a large volume, but for global shipping it's a drop in the bucket.

> Maybe it's that the factory(s) don't make 100% of the drives in an instant and then just distribute them for the rest of the year, but slowly make a constant stream of drives, all of which were swallowed up for a period of time by the massive order, causing the shortage.

Sure they do. But, again: If we're assuming 2% of total drives, it would be the output for one week. Not ideal, but not a major shortage. And that's the worst-case scenario: Orders in the billions of dollars don't usually work in the time frame of one week; it's quite likely that the manufacturers knew of this well in advance and were able to upscale/order accordingly.

> Out of 150 million drives, there might not have been 4 million 3TB drives out there, this was 2014, maybe there was but they didn't want all the exact same drive, if you calculate that some of the drives are 2TB or 1TB the estimated numbers only get larger.

Sure. But 4TB drives and probably 6TB were also available at the time and it's reasonable that for extremely large storage, they'd shoot for larger drives - if only for space and heat efficiency. There surely were a few smaller drives as cache etc. here and there, but I'd presume the lions share to be large drives.

> I think it's totally reasonable that a single order of 12,000,000TB to a single location in Utah could grind the widespread consumer market to a halt for a bit,

I won't disagree with that it surely did impact the market a bit, but I highly doubt it was a major cause for the shortage. Especially when there's a perfectly fine explanation of a tsunami hitting where most drives are manufactured.

> especially if they're almost all made in one place, which it seems most of this discussion is taking for granted.

Most likely they'd order from multiple manufacturers, alone for capacity and failure probability reasons. In fact, if they actually ordered in one place, you could easily get evidence for this theory by showing the problems originating from one specific manufacturer.

> It looks like you've picked only the most favorable statistics and ignored everything else in formulating your opinion/response.

I highly disagree with that. I picked the largest estimate of the data center size and the capacity commonly available to consumers at the time; additionally, I only used a (low!) estimate for the size of the consumer market and completely disregarded the enterprise one. If anything, I probably overestimated the impact.

A said above, the massive buying surely did not help the shortage and I dislike the NSA as much as the next guy. But unless my estimation is off by an order of magnitude the numbers simply don't add up - even assuming the ordered with a delivery date of yesterday! - and given that there's a very reasonable alternative explanation for the shortage, I don't think this is a sound theory.

Re: ST3000DM001

#224
post #121
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... but aren't the observations itself part of the standard narrative, and the nonstandard part is how people explain them? (One standard explanation being that they are just some next-level high-tech stuff being tested.)

> but aren't the observations itself part of the standard narrative Only in a technical sense. When people talk about UFOs, they are not referring to known things like weather balloons, planes or fighter jets, but, instead, to something out of the ordinary. However, every "standard" explanation offered is one of these things. The standard narrative here is: UFOs don't exist.

I assume you mean UFOs as in "alien flying saucers".

I think the rationally correct belief is that we simply have no evidence of aliens at this time, and since we virtually know absolutely nothing about what pilots saw (all we know is that there are these observations), we just fall back to our priors (base assumptions). Sure, it might be aliens. And hence the ancient aliens meme. It might all be secret military stuff. (Or the mix of the two, hence the storm Area 51 meme.)

And in this case I don't see what's wrong with the standard narrative.

If there are truly aliens flying regularly in our atmosphere we should strap a few 4K recorders on regular airline planes, and we just have to wait.

Not to mention the increasing number of space launches and spacecraft up there. And increasing number of downward looking observatories.

Re: ST3000DM001

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

After the WD / Hitachi merger, there was an anti-trust case and WD was forced to sell some assets to Toshiba. Toshiba took on a huge portion of Hitachi's former business, and seems to have a solid business. Backblaze doesn't buy Toshiba because the sticker is in the wrong location (and Toshiba doesn't want to move the sticker), but otherwise... their Toshiba tests look pretty good.

Why does the location of the sticker matter?

When you have 60 hard drives in a server, and server says "Hard Drive SerialNumber #51233142 has failed", you need a quick-and-easy way to find that hard drive.

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/storage-pod.html

A sticker with the Serial Number on the correct location will help you find which of those 60-hard drives are broken. Toshiba didn't have their stickers in a location that worked for Backblaze.

Re: ST3000DM001

#227

Back in the mid 90s I was working in IT at a midsized company. We used Compaq desktops (this is the Pentium Pro timeframe). The HD in the system where quantum fireball (IIRC). They failed at an amazing rate all in the first 3 months (30%). We called Compaq at one point and said, look we want replacement drives for all of our remaining systems. After much back and forth (stupid on their part as we had 1000+ machines o…

Yep. We had maybe 60 of these. I think 2GB, but can’t remember for sure. We were all Compaq desktops and servers (Toshiba laptops for sales) but much smaller so no clout.

We bought some drives to rotate while we waited for RMAs, but the ones we got back failed too, so we just ended up keeping a stack of drives ready to swap.

They sat next to the spare dongles for the PCMCIA Ethernet cards, that the sales folks would inevitably break by tilting the laptop on it to get at a piece of paper on their desk.

That was a fun time being a small IT shop playing with WinNT and early Linux. We did everything from writing internal apps to running Ethernet.

3 guys in a glorified closet using post-its as our ticketing/user story system. Very IT Crowd.

Re: ST3000DM001

#228
I have 1 of these still in an array and my second to last one died a few weeks ago. They had high failure rates for sure but some of them held on for a good 5+ years for me. All of these drives came from shucking and a little over a year ago I moved from Seagate externals to WD externals and my pain increased 10-fold. Not only did I have to deal with the 3.3V pin issue but I've had drives die in under a year. Since then I dropped externals for internals (and the warranty that comes with it) and I went back to Seagate (Exos). Of course now buying a hard drive is insane with the prices where they are (easily $100 over what I paid before the price spike).

Re: ST3000DM001

#229
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plausibility of a conspiracy theory diminishes as the number of people necessary to keep the secret increases. How many people work in Thailand's hard drive manufacturing plants? Hundreds? Thousands? How many people in the logistics channels? How many people are vending food to these employees? How many people in the US Government? Oh, and pulling this off would also require co-ordination with Thai Government. Th…

> The plausibility of a conspiracy theory diminishes as the number of people necessary to keep the secret increases. Where did this idea come from?

Not OP, but I think this is the source for their claim:

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...

Re: ST3000DM001

#230
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The plausibility of a conspiracy theory diminishes as the number of people necessary to keep the secret increases. How many people work in Thailand's hard drive manufacturing plants? Hundreds? Thousands? How many people in the logistics channels? How many people are vending food to these employees? How many people in the US Government? Oh, and pulling this off would also require co-ordination with Thai Government. Th…

> The plausibility of a conspiracy theory diminishes as the number of people necessary to keep the secret increases. Where did this idea come from?

Common sense and knowledge of human shortcomings. It's hard to keep a juicy secret.
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